052C/052D Class Destroyers

tphuang · Aug 12, 2023

ACuriousPLAFan said:
So now, Xavier says that he will come up with his own report and his own footage of the visit.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1682029285262131208

Heh. We'll see how things go from here...

The saga continues...

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they said he was really not allowed to get anywhere close to cabin area to see the damage control system. They also said that what you see on those allowed public visit is different than during actual missions. They want to make the deck and areas reporters show look good and clean for the cameras. For anything wood in the cabin, you can just throw it in the water when war starts. It's really not a big deal. During peacetime, it's better to make environment more comfortable for crew member.

Now, I don't know if damage control on 052D on par with Burkes. It probably has damage control standards closer to what PLAN did back in early 2000s with 052B. I'd imagine 055 is at a whole different level since it has much high automation and is designed to operate further away from shore. It's also a modern design and such. Also imo, if 052D damage control isn't perfect, that's not end of the world either. In any likely conflict, it's going to close enough to port where it can make it back to port even if a little more damaged

ACuriousPLAFan · Aug 12, 2023

tphuang said:
Now, I don't know if damage control on 052D on par with Burkes. It probably has damage control standards closer to what PLAN did back in early 2000s with 052B. I'd imagine 055 is at a whole different level since it has much high automation and is designed to operate further away from shore. It's also a modern design and such. Also imo, if 052D damage control isn't perfect, that's not end of the world either. In any likely conflict, it's going to close enough to port where it can make it back to port even if a little more damaged

The 052Ds are also expected to operate further away from Chinese shores. If else, how should future Chinese carriers be escorted for operations around the 2IC - Or even beyond the 2IC in the future? With 055s and 054Bs only?

In the meantime, if the damage control standards on the 052Ds is indeed closer to that of the 052B/Cs in the early-2000s, I don't think it is exactly surprising, considering there are mentions (by @horobeyo on Twitter I believe) that the final design of the 052D-class have been largely set-in-place in the late-2000s.

However, if there are no further improvements being made on the damage control systems for the later (i.e. 3rd and 4th) batches of 052Ds, then it is certainly not encouraging to hear, either - Also for understandable reasons. This, if true, is also one of the reasons why I believe that China should terminate the serial production of the 052D-class once the 4th batch is completed, in order continue the general destroyer line with a much more advanced, highly upgraded and with better survivability's 052E(?)/05X-class.

tphuang · Aug 12, 2023

ACuriousPLAFan said:
The 052Ds are also expected to operate further away from Chinese shores. If else, how should future Chinese carriers be escorted for operations around the 2IC - Or even beyond the 2IC in the future? With 055s and 054Bs only?

In the meantime, if the damage control standards on the 052Ds is indeed closer to that of the 052B/Cs in the early-2000s, I don't think it is exactly surprising, considering there are mentions (by @horobeyo on Twitter I believe) that the final design of the 052D-class have been largely set-in-place in the late-2000s.

However, if there are no further improvements being made on the damage control systems for the later (i.e. 3rd and 4th) batches of 052Ds, then it is certainly not encouraging to hear, either - Also for understandable reasons. This, if true, is also one of the reasons why I believe that China should terminate the serial production of the 052D-class once the 4th batch is completed, in order continue the general destroyer line with a much more advanced, highly upgraded and with better survivability's 052E(?)/05X-class.

If I were you, I wouldn't make predictions or judgments on stuff like this based on my take. But I personally do expect future carrier groups to see more 055/054B and fewer 052Ds. It's been well known that 055 and 052D have similar crew size (at least from shilao podcast) and the former is a lot larger. So it's quite clear 052D is not ideal for deployment.

As for why would you need them then? Are you concerned at all about not having enough quantity for a westpac conflict? Because I am and I think PLA is also

by78 · Aug 12, 2023

tphuang said:
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see starting 49 minutes mark.

they said he was really not allowed to get anywhere close to cabin area to see the damage control system. They also said that what you see on those allowed public visit is different than during actual missions. They want to make the deck and areas reporters show look good and clean for the cameras. For anything wood in the cabin, you can just throw it in the water when war starts. It's really not a big deal. During peacetime, it's better to make environment more comfortable for crew member.

Now, I don't know if damage control on 052D on par with Burkes. It probably has damage control standards closer to what PLAN did back in early 2000s with 052B. I'd imagine 055 is at a whole different level since it has much high automation and is designed to operate further away from shore. It's also a modern design and such. Also imo, if 052D damage control isn't perfect, that's not end of the world either. In any likely conflict, it's going to close enough to port where it can make it back to port even if a little more damaged

At this point, I'm inclined to believe that Xavier (@XavNN) lied about touring the interior of the ship. He simply made up the story. So it's a waste of time to speculate on the reasons as to why he didn't see what he allegedly didn't see. My previous posts on this matter, which had plenty of images to contradict his account, clearly demonstrate that a lot of the damage control equipment are non-removable permanent fixtures and very difficult to miss unless one is legally blind and/or willfully dishonest.

aahyan · Aug 19, 2023

Few Images of live firing drills....

ACuriousPLAFan · Aug 19, 2023

Okay, seems like I've missed out this one.

tphuang said:
If I were you, I wouldn't make predictions or judgments on stuff like this based on my take.

Noted.

tphuang said:
But I personally do expect future carrier groups to see more 055/054B and fewer 052Ds. It's been well known that 055 and 052D have similar crew size (at least from shilao podcast) and the former is a lot larger. So it's quite clear 052D is not ideal for deployment.

and

tphuang said:
As for why would you need them then? Are you concerned at all about not having enough quantity for a westpac conflict? Because I am and I think PLA is also

#1 - Regarding the "So it's quite clear 052D is not ideal for deployment.":
If/Since that's the case, then why do Jiangnan and Dalian keep building (at least) 10 more 052DLs right now? Shouldn't the PLAN end the serial procurement of 052DLs right away in favor of more 055s only (or proceed with the direct-successor class to the 052D/DL, i.e. 052X/05X)?

Why even bother with building more 052DLs, if they aren't expected to operate deeper into the Pacific, and be part of the Chinese CSG/CBGs into the future? Where would the 052D/DLs go, and what would be their purpose?

#2 - Regarding the "Are you concerned at all about not having enough quantity for a westpac conflict?":
Yes, absolutely! I thought this is a foregone conclusion by now?

In fact, with the naval arms race reignited between China and the US&LC, I would prefer that the PLAN to, at the very least, be on-par with the deployable naval forces of the US&LC in the WestPac, both in terms of quality and quantity - In order to secure the fundamental supremacy abd superiority for China in the WestPac/IndoPac theater.

Which means that it is best for China to not just build (read: print) more DDGs, but actually build (read: print) more DDGs that are way capable and more effective at fighting under intensive naval combat at long/expeditionary distances from home.

(Of course this applies to all warship types in the PLAN that are crucial for the war effort.)

~~~

Tl; dr - That's what I actually meant by that post. I want China to be like the US in WW2, not the Soviet Union in WW2 - When it comes to procuring equipment and platforms to fight in Operation AR - And even the Pacific War 2.0.

siegecrossbow · Aug 19, 2023

ACuriousPLAFan said:
So now, Xavier says that he will come up with his own report and his own footage of the visit.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1682029285262131208

Heh. We'll see how things go from here...

The saga continues...

Not to be a jerk but it has been a month and we assume that it is still in progress?

by78 said:
Here are some additional watertight doors, watertight hatches, and firefighting equipment that Xavier may have missed. Combined with my previous tally, I believe he had forgotten about or somehow failed to see a dozen watertight doors and hatches, along with a bewildering array of firefighting equipment along the way.

Remember, my tallies are based on incomplete video footage, so who knows how many more watertight doors, hatches, fire extinguishers, fire hoses, and fire hydrants Xavier had witnessed on his tour but somehow chose not to disclose on the podcast.

P.S. My tallies assume Xavier's tour took roughly the same path as seen in the video footage.

He is right about one thing though. There are some "propaganda" posters around. The content is pretty tasteful though. I wonder what he thinks of navies that put up posters of anime chicks. How is "I defend the Mother Land" any more ludicrous than "I defend Patchwork Chimera"?

para80 · Aug 19, 2023

siegecrossbow said:
Not to be a jerk but it has been a month and we assume that it is still in progress?

A report is supposedly still coming though I have not seen a timeframe for it. Xavier was on vacation after the defence show in Istanbul. None of the recent pieces on NN were written by him personally for the same reason (they are by other contributors and direct adaptions of industry press releases).

siegecrossbow · Aug 19, 2023

para80 said:
A report is supposedly still coming though I have not seen a timeframe for it. Xavier was on vacation after the defence show in Istanbul. None of the recent pieces on NN were written by him personally for the same reason (they are by other contributors and direct adaptions of industry press releases).

Well it's not like we are writing Shakespeare here are we? Personally I don't even see the point of doing a report at all. Just take some screencaps of him doing a selfie inside of Nanning and posting them on Twitter is sufficient. As someone who has just screen capped over a dozen baby photos from a video of my kid at the playground I can assure you that this is not time consuming work, at all.

plawolf said:
To be honest, it’s quite absurd that people have wasted this much time and effort to debunk an obvious loaded observation looking to fit standard western prejudices. As has already been pointed out, the pristine condition of the ship was merely noted, with zero follow up on how that reflects on the professionalism and discipline of the crew (which are also directly relevant to firefighting and DC), but a casual observation, and a poor one at that, and the PLAN isn’t a serious navy and doesn’t understand basics like watertight doors and firefighting.

Watertight doors are such a basic and universal core fundamental of shipbuilding that is frankly idiotic to assert that the world’s biggest commercial and military shipbuilding would not know where they should be installed on warships. And it’s just as idiotic to suggest any navy would compromise on such core fundamentals to penny pinch to save what? Less than the cost of a missile?

If he had observed that the watertight doors lacked certain specific features found on other warships that was introduced as a result of lessons learnt from combat, that would be marginally more believable but still obviously bullshit once you go beyond the most basic surface level. But somehow I doubt he has anything close to the level of technical knowledge to notice such details.

The Chinese navy are far more aware than anyone that they lack the history and combat experience of foreign navies, almost to an obsessive and paranoid level. That is why they gather as much information as humanly possible about every minute aspect of foreign warship design and operation, often at great expense and totally unnecessarily, like when they bought decommissioned soviet and western warships for ‘scrapping’, which was basically so they can pull them apart and learn everything possible.

The PLAN are not needlessly proud and will use foreign navies as models and baselines wherever possible, case in point them basically adopting the entire USN carrier playbook for their own carrier operations.

With this proven and consistent track record, it’s just mind boggling how someone knowledgeable could seriously think they would not know about the importance of firefighting/DC or watertight doors.

The fact that he attributed the greatest naval buildup since the conclusion of WWII to Uncle Xi saving 30,000 yuan on fire extinguishers is not just plain stupid, but insult to the collective intelligence of human beings since the species has achieved sentience. I now understand why there are people who believe serpentza's video where he claimed that there is zero bird in China. It is not intellectual debate, it is a religion. It is comforting to believe that there is a "gotcha" with China's naval buildup, just like it is comforting to believe that "maybe my boss is going to give me a promotion this year after I've been working this dead end retail job for two decades".

Heliox · Aug 20, 2023

siegecrossbow said:
Not to be a jerk but it has been a month and we assume that it is still in progress?

He is right about one thing though. There are some "propaganda" posters around. The content is pretty tasteful though. I wonder what he thinks of navies that put up posters of anime chicks. How is "I defend the Mother Land" any more ludicrous than "I defend Patchwork Chimera"?

I'm very interested to see how this pans out as well.

Western media has a common practice of deliberate false bad takes for the purpose of headlines that pander to their reader base. They then either ignore the correction or give so little effort to the correction that the majority of their reader base miss it and are still influenced by the original fake premise - in other words, mission accomplished.

Taking the 2 extremes of how this ends ...

Either Xavier writes his explainer and we get our eyes opened on certain critical issues with the PLAN - which objectively we will all appreciate the knowledge of, if it is true.

Or he carries on dodging and the longer he dodges, the less credibility he has and we (or myself, at least) can safely consign him to the trash heap of journos to ignore.

I think it's worth revisiting this ever so infrequently just to give it a bump in consciousness. Personally, my threshold is about half-a-year. by78's posts are a serious question on Xavier's credibility - if Xavier can't muster up the time (a day?) in 6 months to address something like this, then he's either hoping it dies down or he has no respect for the community at large.

052C/052D Class Destroyers

tphuang

Lieutenant General

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier

tphuang

Lieutenant General

by78

General

aahyan

Senior Member

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier

siegecrossbow

General

para80

Junior Member

siegecrossbow

General

Heliox

Junior Member