052/052B Class Destroyers

Re: DDG 052C Thread

pugachev_diver said:

Just curious, are nuclear ractors really that expensive compared to traditional engines? I mean, the Chinese already have those nuclear subs, can't they just modify them to place it on the surface combatants?
Another quick question is the nuclear submarines. We often see 3,4 conventional subs roll out of the dock every year, but we rarely see nuclear subs being produced even 1 per year. I have read a serious article, not those fan boy ones, but academic article, saying that even at the most conservative estimation, a nuclear attack sub would equal four conventional subs. Since China really want a blue water navy, why not just roll out nuclear subs instead of conventional ones.
There must be a reason why Russia and USA still only produce nuclear subs even 20 years after the end of the cold war.

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I believe the french nuclear carrier charles de gaulle has reactors derived from their nuclear subs and had alot of problem with it. Plus they are not in a hurry. It is more important that they spend the necessary time needed to develop a proper nuclear reactor for aircraft carrier.

Re: DDG 052C Thread

pugachev_diver said:

Just curious, are nuclear ractors really that expensive compared to traditional engines? I mean, the Chinese already have those nuclear subs, can't they just modify them to place it on the surface combatants?
Another quick question is the nuclear submarines. We often see 3,4 conventional subs roll out of the dock every year, but we rarely see nuclear subs being produced even 1 per year. I have read a serious article, not those fan boy ones, but academic article, saying that even at the most conservative estimation, a nuclear attack sub would equal four conventional subs. Since China really want a blue water navy, why not just roll out nuclear subs instead of conventional ones.
There must be a reason why Russia and USA still only produce nuclear subs even 20 years after the end of the cold war.

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In short, yes -- it's really expensive in terms of material and manpower.
Think about it.
1. reactors requires exotic materials to deal with radiation corrosion.
2. reactors requires high purity, highly enriched fuel, which are expensive and in short supply.
3. there are limits to how much specialized tooling is available to construct and maintain the reactors.
4. there are limits to how many trained personnel that is required to construct, operate, and maintain the reactors.
5. the reactors must be crewed 24/7 even in port -- restarting a reactor is a non-trivial task.
6. nuclear powered ships are harder to design -- unlike conventionally powered ships, you do not have fuels available use as counterweight if your center of gravity is screwed up.

Am I missing anything? Essentially this means you cannot throw money at it and expect immediate increase in production -- you need to spend money for years in increase capacity.

USSR and Russia never stopped production of conventional subs.
US spend on defense more than next 20 nations combined, and it's strategy is entirely offensively focused -- operating far from its border and close to opponent's shore. That's why US does not find conventional subs useful.

Re: DDG 052C Thread

Nemo is quite right. Besides China is developing a new type of nuclear reactor, the Thorium Molten Salt Reactor, that uses U233 as fuel, the fuel being bred in a Thorium mantel. Thorium is much more abundant than Uranium and it doesn't need enrichment. This reactor works at a much higher temperature, so with a much higher thermal efficiency, thus needing much less cooling water for a given output power. This reactor will be used for electricity production on land, for the production of chemicals, fuel as well as feedstock for the chemical industry, as well as for ship propulsion, being lighter and cheaper as well as not producing Plutonium and little other dangerous radio-active materials. Indeed they can solve our problems with radio-active waste.
The reactors in USN ships are meant to be used for half a century and so will be the TMSR's. It makes sense for China to avoid building more nuclear powered naval ships than strictly necessary until these new reactors are ready.

Re: DDG 052C Thread

Diesel-electric subs are also quieter, and with the huge amount of money now going into battery research (driven by demand for better mobile phones and electric vehicles), there's a lot of potential for vastly improved diesel-electric subs.

They'll never have the range of nuclear subs, but if your primary mission is close-to-home, then deisel-electric is cheaper and potentially deadlier.

Re: DDG 052C Thread

The only navy which has operated a substantial force of nuclear surface combatants is the US Navy, which built a total of 9 between 1961 and 1980. With the exception of the three first (LONG BEACH, BAINBRIDGE and TRUXTUN), they had remarkably short careers, all being decommissioned post-Cold War in 1995-98. The two CALIFORNIA and the four VIRGINIA class cruisers thus spent only little more than 20 years in operational service.

The Soviet Union built the four KIROV class nuclear cruisers, of which only the last, PETR VELIKIY, remains operational. The KIROV itself suffered an engine breakdown in the Mediterranean about 1985 and never went to sea again.

This experience does not seem to call for imitation. As to aircraft carriers, it is true that CHARLES DE GAULLE has two M15 reactors which are the same as that in the LE TRIOMPHANT class SSBN’s and is somewhat underpowered. The Chinese could, and no doubt will, similarly put submarine reactors into future aircraft carriers, but to produce the needed power they may have to install four reactors, as in the ENTERPRISE.

The USN is not the only navy to have an all-nuclear submarine fleet. France and Britain both got rid of their last conventional submarines, the AGOSTA and UPHOLDER classes, after the end of the Cold War and do not seem to miss them.

Re: DDG 052C Thread

Neither France nor the UK need to defend themselves, so they don't need diesel-electric 'boats.
BTW, Enterprise has eight reactors.
The Chinese had best wait for the development of their Thorium reactors and perhaps use them first in a supply ship and then use a pair in aircraft carrier number four or five. When successful such reactors can be used in all blue water ships, so no ship propulsion fuel need be delivered by the supply ships. Submarines can be built with these reactors after sufficient experience has been gathered in surface vessels.

BTW, we're getting a bit off topic!

Re: DDG 052C Thread

delft said:

Neither France nor the UK need to defend themselves, so they don't need diesel-electric 'boats.
BTW, Enterprise has eight reactors.
The Chinese had best wait for the development of their Thorium reactors and perhaps use them first in a supply ship and then use a pair in aircraft carrier number four or five. When successful such reactors can be used in all blue water ships, so no ship propulsion fuel need be delivered by the supply ships. Submarines can be built with these reactors after sufficient experience has been gathered in surface vessels.

BTW, we're getting a bit off topic!

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T tried to stay on topic by starting out with destroyer-type ships (which most of the USN CG's really are). Thanks for the info on ENTERPRISE, I should have looked it up, I just thought that having more than the two on the NIMITZ class, it would be four - but eight, what a mess!

Re: DDG 052C Thread

Funny. The 052D rumour is again at huitong. After years of rumours predicting 052D, and the recent dissapointment, now its construction is expected within the next few years. lol

Re: DDG 052C Thread

kroko said:

Funny. The 052D rumour is again at huitong. After years of rumours predicting 052D, and the recent dissapointment, now its construction is expected within the next few years. lol

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Maybe the 052D upgrade is as drastic as we may predict it to be. It might be just slightly bigger, with minor modifications. But it could also be a major mod, turning it into 10,000 ton class giants.
We wouldn't know until it actually comes out.

Re: DDG 052C Thread

Interesting. That may be the second batch of four destroyers that will allegedly be launched from Jiangnan 2013-15.

I think that it is only after 2015 that we will see a truely new destroyer design, no doubt bigger than 052C/C+/D (the rumoured Type 055???).

As requested elsewhere, would anyone provide the link to Huitong’s site, I think it is called Topair81.cn or something like that, but I cannot find it?