052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

franco-russe said:

i.e. was of course referring to the FLOREAL class, based at French overseas possessions, which were very low-budget ships built to comercial standards.

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You bet.

But those vessels have a completely different mission.

These larger vessels have a huge, mulit-mission responsibility, whether a FREMM, a Burke, a Horizon, Daring, Type 052C/D, or even the LCS. They have to have significant and expensive systems to help accomplish those missions...and depending on where they are built, the cost to build them can add significantly to the bottom line too.

My point was simply that they also have to have significant smaller caliber, close in defenses to fight terrorists, pirates, and small craft who may try to board or attack them in port or at very close quarters.

That does not mean they are "billion dollar" ships built to have those small weapons when a "colonial defense" cutter would do. It just means that in accomplishing their larger missions, they cannot allow a localized, asymetrical threat to either mission kill, severly damage, or sink them. it's a hard lesson the USl re-learned in the USS Cole incident (which still should never have happened had they been operating under better ROEs at the time.)

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

franco-russe said:

i.e. was of course referring to the FLOREAL class, based at French overseas possessions, which were very low-budget ships built to comercial standards.

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The Floréal-class frigate was built some 20 years ago, and we do not know what the cost would be today if they were to build a modernized variant. The Maritime Gendarmerie of France only has small patrol boats and does not serve the role of Coast Guard like other countries. The Floréal-class frigate is basically a more heavily armed OPV or OPC (off shore patrol cutter) serving the role of a coast guard cutter.

If we were to draw comparison to US in a critique, the it should be compared to the over priced NSC (national security cutter) and not USN warships. However, the French are also looking replace the Floréal-class, and cost of this new ship will certainly be higher as we'll.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

That does not mean they are "billion dollar" ships built to have those small weapons when a "colonial defense" cutter would do. It just means that in accomplishing their larger missions, they cannot allow a localized, asymetrical threat to either mission kill, severly damage, or sink them. it's a hard lesson the USl re-learned in the USS Cole incident (which still should never have happened had they been operating under better ROEs at the time.)

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Task Force 150, tell me how many aegis destroyer does it take... how many. to hunt down pirates in row boats.

yes, there are missions that's require a big ship with missiles, but sadly, most of world's threat are asymmetric. which can not possibly justify a navy of 60-70 modern destroyers at 1.8 billion a pop.

case in point:

hottest conflict zone right now in the world: syria.
9 million people are displaced, and that;s half of its population. massive starvation, disease. utter destruction of a generation of one of the mist secular and cosmopolitan population of middle east.

Saudi Funded Jihadists are fighting with/along side american cia backed freedom fighters fighting Assad gov't forces, tossing rocket propelled chemical weapons at each other like there is no tmr.

tell me, what possible good can a 1.8 billion destroyer can do that a floreal class is not already doing.

aegis destroyer is design for a control a large amount of air and sea space against massed soviet cruiser missile attacks. it can not stop the civil war that is tearing the contry apart. nor would it likely to save at any meaningful proportion of those 9 million lives being ruined.


and soviet union is gone.

I bet if you put all of middleeast's AshCM together and launch at same same time against 2 Aegis destroyers none of the missile will make it through.

apart from the one or two really bad guys, themselves impoverished and isolated, on defensive and lack a big military industrial complex that can challenge the world's norm via conventional military means... , rest of the world';s problem, is, essentially, really, colonial defense.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I think there are two divergent arguments here. One is that the US destroyers and LCS are not simply expensive gunboats but rather platforms supporting a myriad of weapons systems with high mission flexibility. Very true indeed. The other argument is that the US lately has embarked on vessels that all cost an arm and a leg, even ones that are supposed to be workhorses like the LCS. Both are valid points. The US really could use a simple general purpose frigate replacement along the same lines as the Perrys and satisfy a lot of missions around the globe that aren't hotspots needing the capability of massive firepower just in case.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

joshuatree said:

The US really could use a simple general purpose frigate replacement along the same lines as the Perrys and satisfy a lot of missions around the globe that aren't hotspots needing the capability of massive firepower just in case.

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US got enought (borrowed) money to burn

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

i.e. said:

Task Force 150, tell me how many aegis destroyer does it take... how many. to hunt down pirates in row boats.

yes, there are missions that's require a big ship with missiles, but sadly, most of world's threat are asymmetric. which can not possibly justify a navy of 60-70 modern destroyers at 1.8 billion a pop.

case in point:

hottest conflict zone right now in the world: syria.
9 million people are displaced, and that;s half of its population. massive starvation, disease. utter destruction of a generation of one of the mist secular and cosmopolitan population of middle east.

Saudi Funded Jihadists are fighting with/along side american cia backed freedom fighters fighting Assad gov't forces, tossing rocket propelled chemical weapons at each other like there is no tmr.

tell me, what possible good can a 1.8 billion destroyer can do that a floreal class is not already doing.

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The nations are using their expensive ships in this anti-piracy role (including the PLAN) to make an international statement, and protect large sums of their national treasures which are associated with the container and tanker vessels. And they are winning it.

When the LCS are available, they will be used for it...and it is still over kill. Would be better to ultimately use the 2nd tier Coast Guard cutters. Better yet, the real answer is to arm the tankers/container ships, which is happening now. To date, more than 80% of all container ships now have armed security teams on them. Such teams will defeat this level of piracy almost every time.

In order to defeat armed security teams on these container vessels, the pirates will have to themselves acquire crew serviced weapons for bigger vessels with which to attack with. But they can never keep up with the nations that are committed to defending those vessels, and this use makes that point right up front.

As it is, that example is a very small percentage of these vessels and is certainly not the mission the were designed for. That mission needs doing, and the larger vessels will continue having to do them.

The principle reason for the smaller weapons (the .50 cal and 25 or 30mm guns it to allow the DDGs and FFGs to prevent and thwart asymmetrical attacks against them[/I], not for protecting other vessels per sey.

Your case in point is a ground conflict and a civil war on the ground. Naval vessels were not built to engage and win those conflicts. But the other missions have not gone away, and their are still competing strategic and resource issues between major powers...so the need will continue.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

joshuatree said:

The US really could use a simple general purpose frigate replacement along the same lines as the Perrys and satisfy a lot of missions around the globe that aren't hotspots needing the capability of massive firepower just in case.

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Agreed. And the US is starting to look at those solutions. A good GP frigate, armed for multi-mission, without all the gee-whiz, wiz-bang expensive state of the art, cutting-edge systems would be great. The US could use 30-36 of these.

However, when the OHPs were built, for their time, they were not considered "cheap." Just the same, it is interesting that the nations who have them and are upgrading them to state of the art are spending more per vessel to do that than the vessels originally cost.

A good 2,800 ton FFG, that is sea-worthy, has a 76mm DP gun, a single RAM launcher, a single 20mm CIWS, and a couple of 25mm Mk 38s, with a helo-pad and hanger, would suffice. Give it a 28 knot speed and a 3,000 nm range, with sensors to match its own weapons capabilities and not meant to be a cooperative engagement vessel. Something like that could be built for $150 million dollars. You could get three of those for the price of one LCS.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

Agreed. And the US is starting to look at those solutions. A good GP frigate, armed for multi-mission, without all the gee-whiz, wiz-bang expensive state of the art, cutting-edge systems would be great. The US could use 30-36 of these.

However, when the OHPs were built, for their time, they were not considered "cheap." Just the same, it is interesting that the nations who have them and are upgrading them to state of the art are spending more per vessel to do that than the vessels originally cost.

A good 2,800 ton FFG, that is sea-worthy, has a 76mm DP gun, a single RAM launcher, a single 20mm CIWS, and a couple of 25mm Mk 38s, with a helo-pad and hanger, would suffice. Give it a 28 knot speed and a 3,000 nm range, with sensors to match its own weapons capabilities and not meant to be a cooperative engagement vessel. Something like that could be built for $150 million dollars. You could get three of those for the price of one LCS.

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Hopefully but mission creep and special interests are always a problem. LCS was supposed to be one of the two designs, now it's two, etc etc.

With foreign navies acquiring and refurbing OHPs, I see one of two scenarios on why they end up spending more than original cost.

- They are positioning their OHPs as their main naval pieces compared to the USN. So they are beefing them up beyond original spec.

- They don't have their own shipbuilding capacity or at least economically and thought the refurb route would save them money but it did not turn out that way.


All the US should do if we're talking about true, inexpensive GP frigates would be to dust off the OHP blueprints, update them and build OHP Flight IV versions. Maybe even go with all diesel propulsion for fuel efficiency. And then have the armament you've suggested. Not every USN vessel has to be a star fighter but this mindset is too entrenched.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

joshuatree said:

Hopefully, but mission creep and special interests are always a problem. LCS was supposed to be one of the two designs, now it's two, etc etc.

the US should do...would be to dust off the OHP blueprints, update them and build OHP Flight IV versions.

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Yes, pork barrel politics, mission creep, and a mindset that everything has to be 125% top notch did its share to the LCS, Ultimately, they will work it out, and it will be a good, effective design...but at well over twice the price.

I like Huntignton Ingalls PAtrol Frigate concept based on the Berthold Coast Guard Cutter hull. Except I would lose the Mk-41 forward and replace it with a RAM system there, and lose the fancy 57mm gun and replace it with a cheaper 766mm DP gun. Otherwise, it's a good design for what we are talking about. I think for the purpose of what we are talking about, it would be a better solution than the OHP.


However, we are now very far OT and I cna hear a heavy, mechanical breathing. We better get back on topic before Vader hits us with the "force."

In that regard, some interesting information about the Type 052D is in this recent article:

WantChinaTimes said:

China's third Type 052D guided-missile destroyer was recently launched at Jiangnan Shipyard in Shanghai, reports the Global Times, a publication of the Communist Party of China.

Designed as a surface combat ship with the Chinese equivalent of the Aegis combat system, the Type 052D is equipped with new Active Electronically Scanned Array radar to guide its HQ-9 air defense missiles against targets. Its vertical launching system is capable of launching up to 64 missiles.

The destroyers are fitted with a massively improved data linking system, named the Joint Service Integrated Data Link System, considered the equivalent of the Link 16 military tactical data exchange network currently used by the United States. Three Type 052D destroyers have been completed and are named Kunming, Changsha and Guiyang.

A total of eight Type 052D destroyers will form the backbone of the PLA Navy's surface combat force in the future. While six of these ships will have been constructed at the Jiangnan Shipyard, the last two will be built in Dalian in northeastern China's Liaoning province. A photo of the third vessel, Guiyang, was recently taken.

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re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

Agreed. And the US is starting to look at those solutions. A good GP frigate, armed for multi-mission, without all the gee-whiz, wiz-bang expensive state of the art, cutting-edge systems would be great. The US could use 30-36 of these.

However, when the OHPs were built, for their time, they were not considered "cheap." Just the same, it is interesting that the nations who have them and are upgrading them to state of the art are spending more per vessel to do that than the vessels originally cost.

A good 2,800 ton FFG, that is sea-worthy, has a 76mm DP gun, a single RAM launcher, a single 20mm CIWS, and a couple of 25mm Mk 38s, with a helo-pad and hanger, would suffice. Give it a 28 knot speed and a 3,000 nm range, with sensors to match its own weapons capabilities and not meant to be a cooperative engagement vessel. Something like that could be built for $150 million dollars. You could get three of those for the price of one LCS.

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The US could import type 056 from China for just $40M. Type 056 could do all you mentioned above (but a hangar)

Sorry Jeff, just a joke