052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

joshuatree said:

The problem you perceive is non-existent. I only said I rather see production of 052D be limited if certain stars lined up, the crucial one being if they have made their breakthrough with propulsion for a higher tonnage vessel. Shipyards having extra capacity due to the shipping demand slump is another star lining up. Even then, since 052D is still in the build phase, it would be a parallel project so it's not really shutting the 052D production line either. There's also no discount of the new systems in 052D. Both the new VLS and APAR are modular components so whether they get mounted onto a 052D hull or a new 055 hull, they can be tested and refined in the same manner. All I'm saying is, if they already have a new propulsion system that they consider satisfactory, they should keep pushing the envelope by putting that system in a hull to work things out. You can't have a 055 ready for mass production if you're not even building one and I fully concur that development will take quite some time, which is why I rather see it start sooner rather than later to reduce that time transitioning from 052D to 055. Why the wish for such a transition? Because I think given the vision the Chinese Navy is pursuing, they will need higher tonnage ships.

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lol, you use the word modular as if they can just slap the VLS and APAR on a ship and that's it. You design your ship based on these combat systems. 052D is not meant o be modular like LCS. I think PLAN knows full very where their technical limitations are and they haven't been shown to be slow when it comes to their development. So whatever you see when they start a new class is when they are actually ready.

The last part only proves that you are a fanboy who only cares about seeing the newest toys. It has a need to replace 051 ships and a limited budget. But don't worry, 055 will come out soon enough, when the technology is ready. Until 055 is mature, 052D will continue to be built.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

A.Man said:

No bad looking, if 055 will look like this

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That is a good looking vessel. Nice lines. Good stealth characteristics.

I cannot imagine the cannister launchers though if they truly developing Mk-41 like system with the ability to launch different missile types.

Also...is it just me? That does not look like an 11,000 ton vessel to me. More on the order of 9,000+ perhaps.

Compare to this depiction of a possible Burke Flight III:


That will be a 10,000 ton vessel for the US NAvy and the vessel depicted does not look as large too me.

Anyhow, very nice indeed.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

tphuang said:

lol, you use the word modular as if they can just slap the VLS and APAR on a ship and that's it. You design your ship based on these combat systems. 052D is not meant o be modular like LCS. I think PLAN knows full very where their technical limitations are and they haven't been shown to be slow when it comes to their development. So whatever you see when they start a new class is when they are actually ready.

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Stop twisting other people's words here. I focused on the VLS and APAR and those systems can be deployed on different hulls. I am not talking about popping these systems on and off per mission like someone changing the wheels on their car when they decide to take it to the tracks. The MK41 is a very good example of that. Aegis Combat System and AN/SPY-1 are also systems deployed in different classes across different navies. The VLS and APAR are the biggest differences between the 052C and 052D. Do you know some top secret specs other's don't? Because otherwise, it's an 052C hull with new mods, not a ship that's entirely new from ground up. As far as I'm concerned, an 055 when built will be entirely ground up new when it comes to the hull. Systems like the VLS and APAR can be carried over. The 055 being nonexistent right now can be designed around these systems as you put it. This isn't some unrealistic expectation when there's precedence with weapons systems used across different classes within PLAN such as AK-176, Type 730, YJ-83, etc. At no time have I said PLAN doesn't know what they are doing so what's the point of you making that statement? Please re-read my comments, I've said them with certain conditions met such as a new propulsion system being ready. Frankly, I don't know why you have such a difficult time with someone else's opinion that doesn't agree with yours.

tphuang said:

The last part only proves that you are a fanboy who only cares about seeing the newest toys. It has a need to replace 051 ships and a limited budget. But don't worry, 055 will come out soon enough, when the technology is ready. Until 055 is mature, 052D will continue to be built.

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If the only imperative of the 052D is to replace 051 ships, building more 054As would easily accomplish that cheaply. Descriptions such as destroyer and frigate are arbitrary and different navies use them differently. Infact, it would be a very interesting exercise if PLAN simulated a battle between a group of 051s vs 056s just to test the resiliency and effectiveness of the 051s against smaller but modern warships. PLAN is transforming itself into a full fledged blue water navy and larger tonnage destroyers/cruisers have a place. You needing to use the "you are a fanboy who only cares about seeing the newest toys" charge smacks of arrogance. In recent postings, I'm the only one who even remotely posts clips or makes comments admiring the old type 037 work horses. You can have the last rebuttal, I linger around these forums to exchange ideas and admiration for the evolving Chinese Navy. I don't have a need to get into "I'm right, you're wrong" exchanges. I'm seeing more of the latter lately, maybe an indication these forums have jumped the shark.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

joshuatree said:

You needing to use the "you are a fanboy who only cares about seeing the newest toys" charge smacks of arrogance. In recent postings, I'm the only one who even remotely posts clips or makes comments admiring the old type 037 work horses. You can have the last rebuttal, I linger around these forums to exchange ideas and admiration for the evolving Chinese Navy. I don't have a need to get into "I'm right, you're wrong" exchanges. I'm seeing more of the latter lately, maybe an indication these forums have jumped the shark.

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I think moderators nowadays need to check their attitude and language.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Lion said:

I think moderators nowadays need to check their attitude and language.

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Lion, I understand that you are upset at me because I've been particularly hard on you for a few month for views that are overly optimistic for PLA and for certain theories. In the end of the day, I understand that most posters here do not want to be thought of as fanboy or as troll, since those represent the two ends of extremes when it comes to views on PLA. But if that's the case, then you should work hard to calm down your views a little bit and listen to people around you. You've been involved in a lot of heated dispute on different issues. I think maybe you should listen to other members a little more on some of them.

You needing to use the "you are a fanboy who only cares about seeing the newest toys" charge smacks of arrogance. In recent postings, I'm the only one who even remotely posts clips or makes comments admiring the old type 037 work horses. You can have the last rebuttal, I linger around these forums to exchange ideas and admiration for the evolving Chinese Navy. I don't have a need to get into "I'm right, you're wrong" exchanges. I'm seeing more of the latter lately, maybe an indication these forums have jumped the shark.

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Joshuatree, I think I should clarify my comment a little bit. I don't look at you as a fanboy, but I often find a lot of posts form different people that are overly anxious about seeing new toys, that I see as fanboy behaviour. And I do apologize if I hurt you with my comment.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

tphuang said:

Joshuatree, I think I should clarify my comment a little bit. I don't look at you as a fanboy, but I often find a lot of posts form different people that are overly anxious about seeing new toys, that I see as fanboy behaviour. And I do apologize if I hurt you with my comment.

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Apology greatly appreciated.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Beam in thine own eye, Lion...

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

All right, I just cleaned up all the posts. Let's get back onto 052.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Whoa! Guess it was a real mess around here...

As for the 052, I think it makes sense for China to stick to roughly this size ship as its largest surface combatant excluding transports, landing ships, carriers, etc. The contemporary high threat environment is simply too high risk for operating ships much larger than destroyers unless you're at the top of the food chain, i.e. unless you're the US. Every other navy is pretty much in this configuration already.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

PanAsian said:

Whoa! Guess it was a real mess around here...

As for the 052, I think it makes sense for China to stick to roughly this size ship as its largest surface combatant excluding transports, landing ships, carriers, etc. The contemporary high threat environment is simply too high risk for operating ships much larger than destroyers unless you're at the top of the food chain, i.e. unless you're the US. Every other navy is pretty much in this configuration already.

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Hmm....? How is operating surface combatants of a higher tonnage than 7000 tonnes "simply too high risk unless you're at the top of the food chain"?. The logic of that escaped me, would you mind clarifying your thought process?