052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

jobjed said:

Uhh... you wouldn't like people sticking their noses into your business, so why do it to them? Non-interference is a virtue too rare nowadays, more countries need to adopt it and GTFO of others' business.

Click to expand...

You'd be right if we lived in a perfect world, there would be no enemies to threaten your SLoC. this is not the case...

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

plawolf said:

SSF would be responsible for securing China's Sea Lines of Communication to the ME, Africa and Europe in the event of conflict.

They would have no chance if the USN tried it, but against anyone else, they have a decent chance, and will only get stronger as they get new ships and carriers.

Click to expand...

Sorry but no navy in the world wants to disrupt sea lines of comunication. Only the USN can do it, and the USN has had freedom of navigation for every nation as one of its core interests for decades. They wont allow any navy to block sea lines of comunication. All merchant navies can count on them, including china. There is no need for china to do that.

For PLAN to truly protect china´s sea lines, it would have to increase imensely its size.

To defend against japan/SK navies (which also includes taking the fighting to the high seas), china will need all vessels that it can get. Thats why ESF should be the priority.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

kroko said:

What is it so special about SSF? they are also blocked by Taiwan, philipines, malaysia and vietnam. Besides, the navies of those countries are outgunned by PLAN. Why should PLAN require carriers and even large destroyers to those waters?

Makes more sense to boost ESF, where they are at the same time somewhat unblocked by japan/south korea and at the same time close enough that they can engage with japan/SK navies which lets face it, are the biggest threat to china, not the philipine navy.

Click to expand...

It is exactly because other navies and air forces surrounding SSF are much weaker that provides a distinct advantage to homeport carriers and large destroyers to those waters. Not because it makes for a lopsided match. But rather less threat of being boxed in or closely monitored on fleet movement. SCS is also the largest body of water in terms of providing distance between China and her neighbors so that further adds to the advantage for any flotilla or fleet to set sail with least notice. Yes, it's the age of satellite imagery and drones but there are still advantages SCS offers vs ECS or Yellow Sea.

Land based assets are well within striking range in the ECS so it's not necessary to have all your carriers and large destroyers with ESF to anticipate an engagement with Japan. I really don't see that high of a chance of an engagement with SK. Compared to disputes with Japan or in SCS, disputes with SK is rather benign.

Now if there comes a day there is unification between China and Taiwan, then basing most of the carriers and large destroyers in the ESF makes sense because then there is a straight and open path to the blue Pacific.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

kroko said:

What is it so special about SSF? they are also blocked by Taiwan, philipines, malaysia and vietnam. Besides, the navies of those countries are outgunned by PLAN. Why should PLAN require carriers and even large destroyers to those waters?

Makes more sense to boost ESF, where they are at the same time somewhat unblocked by japan/south korea and at the same time close enough that they can engage with japan/SK navies which lets face it, are the biggest threat to china, not the philipine navy.

Click to expand...

ESF is also getting a lot of new ships, but it gets the area denial stuff first. It got the conventional submarines before the other fleet and it also got 054As first.

SSF on the other hand has the most number of AORs, all 3 Type 071s, the first Type 093/094s, the first Type 052B/C. You know, it gets the more blue water stuff. Once Chinese ships get down to Malacca straits, it's under a lot of pressure from Australia, Singapore and Malaysian air force + submarines. SSF's current surface fleet will get sunk in a battle in those area. And going forward, look at where China would want to deploy its blue water fleet. Which fleet is the closest? Which one has the easiest path there?

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

joshuatree said:

It is exactly because other navies and air forces surrounding SSF are much weaker that provides a distinct advantage to homeport carriers and large destroyers to those waters. Not because it makes for a lopsided match. But rather less threat of being boxed in or closely monitored on fleet movement. SCS is also the largest body of water in terms of providing distance between China and her neighbors so that further adds to the advantage for any flotilla or fleet to set sail with least notice. Yes, it's the age of satellite imagery and drones but there are still advantages SCS offers vs ECS or Yellow Sea.

Click to expand...

The SSF is no less susceptible to being boxed/monitored than ESF. The JMSDF can still use SCS chokepoints to strangulate PLAN. Better to have a clear line-of-sight of japanese waters.

tphuang said:

Once Chinese ships get down to Malacca straits, it's under a lot of pressure from Australia, Singapore and Malaysian air force + submarines. SSF's current surface fleet will get sunk in a battle in those area. And going forward, look at where China would want to deploy its blue water fleet. Which fleet is the closest? Which one has the easiest path there?

Click to expand...

please explain this post better.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

kroko said:

The SSF is no less susceptible to being boxed/monitored than ESF. The JMSDF can still use SCS chokepoints to strangulate PLAN. Better to have a clear line-of-sight of japanese waters.

Click to expand...

For JMSDF to use SCS chokepoints would mean they would need to be venturing further from their home turf, less advantageous for them. I also do not believe the JMSDF patrols out to the SCS on a regular basis (excluding agreed upon joint exercises, goodwill visits, international sanctioned missions), that would be a violation of its constitution. Also, not everything the Chinese Navy plans on revolve around Japanese waters.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

kroko said:

Sorry but no navy in the world wants to disrupt sea lines of comunication.

Click to expand...

Come on, surely you not not naive enough to believe that? In the event of war, every navy would want to cut the sea based supply lines of their enemies.

Only the USN can do it, and the USN has had freedom of navigation for every nation as one of its core interests for decades. They wont allow any navy to block sea lines of comunication. All merchant navies can count on them, including china. There is no need for china to do that.

Click to expand...

Again, I'm not sure if this is naivety or wishful thinking. The US will not insert itself into a fight between a non-aligned power and a potential rival. Just for example, if a war broke out between China and India and India decided to go after Chinese shipping in the Indian Ocean, are you saying the USN will sink the Indian fleet because of it? Of course not, and if the roles were reversed, there would be no way America would leave itself vulnerable by not developing a strong navy if China promised to keep the world's shipping lanes open.

For PLAN to truly protect china´s sea lines, it would have to increase imensely its size.

Click to expand...

Which is precisely what the PLAN has been doing in the last decade.

To defend against japan/SK navies (which also includes taking the fighting to the high seas), china will need all vessels that it can get. Thats why ESF should be the priority.

Click to expand...

You do realize that just because a ship is assigned to the SSF or NSF it would not forbid them to operate in the ESF area of jurisdiction right?

The idea that SK or Japan would try to launch some invasion of the Chinese eastern seaboard is laughable. They haven't got anywhere near the kind of strength. Even fighting on the 'high seas' within the second island chain, the ESF would be under land based sensor and air cover. PLAAF and PLANAF land based strike power alone is more than enough to make sure the Japanese and SK surface fleets cannot operate safely within 500-1000km of the Chinese coast quite easily. Anything beyond that is of little concern to the PLA toh. If the Japanese and SK navies want to intercept shipping going to and from America carrying the vast amounts of daily items that most Americans depend on, well, lets just say that is as much of a blockade against China as it is against America, and when its national interests are directly threatened is the only time you can realiably expect the USN to step in.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

China's next generation missiles have been revealed, and it seems that there are two extra being developed. HQ-19 is rumored to be similar to the THAAD, and was tested. () HQ-29 is rumored to be similar to the PAC3, and was tested. ()

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

JNCX



C4 & C5



C6



D1 & D2

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

joshuatree said:

... that would be a violation of its constitution. Also, not everything the Chinese Navy plans on revolve around Japanese waters.

Click to expand...

A constitution that Abe Cabinet set to dump into the waste basket in this year, and the current opinion favor such move...hmmm...