052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

ahadicow said:

There is no need to retrofit/retire/convert those older ships. The only thing needed done is upgrading their datalink so they can be commanded by 052C and receives target information from them. Their HQ-7 can suppliment MR AA net, they still provide the helipad, platform for AshM SLCM and UAV, and if worst come to worst, they are moveable sandbags for more valueable ships.

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HQ-7 is not a MR AAM, it is a short ranged missile, adequate only for self defense. There is certainly no way it could take on any crossing missiles not directly inbound.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

joshuatree said:

What sensors are needed for the new VLS?

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Not the VLS itself, it's for the expanded array of munitions, and not restrained to active sensory for target acquisition and tracking, but up-down link to the fleet tactical network as well.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

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re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

ahadicow said:

There is no need to retrofit/retire/convert those older ships. The only thing needed done is upgrading their datalink so they can be commanded by 052C and receives target information from them. Their HQ-7 can suppliment MR AA net, they still provide the helipad, platform for AshM SLCM and UAV, and if worst come to worst, they are moveable sandbags for more valueable ships.

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Before the induction of HQ16, HQ7 was used to provide the very very basic fleet air defense capabilities, but you cannot mistake that with MR air defense. PLAN training video have shown that a Jiangwei can indeed intercept missiles intended for other ships, but those ships must have been very close to the Jiangwei, or it's positioned near the missile flight path. From the picture blew you should see the actual interception range is extremely limited, likely even within the 37mm gun's range. In this kind of scenarios I'd take a 18 or 24 round HQ10 over HQ7 anyday.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

The whole point of having advanced fleet defence warships like the 054A, 052C/D etc is that not every ship in a task force needs to have a comprehensive air defense suit themselves.

The USN actually too the missile launch arms off of their OHP FFGs because it was thought that the air defence protection offered by Burkes was sufficient.

Not every mission needs a ship with Aegis and a hundred VLS SAMs, and the costs of upgrading old hulls with new sensors and VLS is highly questionable when Chinese shipyards are running out of work and could pump out brand new ships specifically designed for VLS and while have the in-built sensors to make the best use of those VLS rather than having to rely on other assets for targeting information.

If the goal is just to get more VLS cells and missiles in a fleet, brand new dedicated arsenal ships would be cheaper, less risky in that they will have minimal crews, can carry far more missiles and will probably be l or cheaper to buy than to retrofit existing ships with VLS they were never designed for.

The Jianghus are likely on their way to early retirement or being used mainly as training ships, with their existing duties being taken over by the new 056s. The better range and endurance of the Jiangweis over the 056 won't really count for that much since the PLAN does not operate far from base, so does not need a fleet of escorts to protect supply and replenishment ships.

The older 051s and 052s will be worth keeping, but if the PLAN is to put money into refitting them, I think that money would be best spent beefing up their ASW capabilities. That is an area of weakness for the PLAN, while they pretty much already have AAW covered. The large hulls of the 051 and 052 would allow for powerful sonar and processing equipment to be installed with little difficulty, and the large double hangers on these ships would be perfect for ASW helo ops.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

plawolf said:

The whole point of having advanced fleet defence warships like the 054A, 052C/D etc is that not every ship in a task force needs to have a comprehensive air defense suit themselves.

The USN actually too the missile launch arms off of their OHP FFGs because it was thought that the air defence protection offered by Burkes was sufficient.

Not every mission needs a ship with Aegis and a hundred VLS SAMs, and the costs of upgrading old hulls with new sensors and VLS is highly questionable when Chinese shipyards are running out of work and could pump out brand new ships specifically designed for VLS and while have the in-built sensors to make the best use of those VLS rather than having to rely on other assets for targeting information.

If the goal is just to get more VLS cells and missiles in a fleet, brand new dedicated arsenal ships would be cheaper, less risky in that they will have minimal crews, can carry far more missiles and will probably be l or cheaper to buy than to retrofit existing ships with VLS they were never designed for.

The Jianghus are likely on their way to early retirement or being used mainly as training ships, with their existing duties being taken over by the new 056s. The better range and endurance of the Jiangweis over the 056 won't really count for that much since the PLAN does not operate far from base, so does not need a fleet of escorts to protect supply and replenishment ships.

The older 051s and 052s will be worth keeping, but if the PLAN is to put money into refitting them, I think that money would be best spent beefing up their ASW capabilities. That is an area of weakness for the PLAN, while they pretty much already have AAW covered. The large hulls of the 051 and 052 would allow for powerful sonar and processing equipment to be installed with little difficulty, and the large double hangers on these ships would be perfect for ASW helo ops.

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Agree that not every ship in a fleet has to be comprehensive in of themselves. However, some of this debate stems from how to streamline the fleet, reduce op costs, fleet commonality. One off classes with "weaker" weapons suites and older units should be the focus of such efforts.

051B, 052s - Hull displacements make them suitable for major overhauls to include items like VLS and up-to-date sensors but only if CN decides if its worthwhile. Would they operate them for at least another decade? If they are to be upgraded with more ASW focus, you would still want to give them credible AAW defense. But as you pointed out, there are shipyards that could use more orders so in this depressed market, it would certainly be very plausible that building a new platform be far more cost effective. Which is why I see a simpler retrofit to CG duty be the best choice after weighing the cost analysis.

Jiangweis (053H2G & 053H3) are relatively new, especially the last batches. They can upgrade them with FL-3000Ns, AK-176, and remote 30mm cheaply and quickly. Would make them more robust and useful. Can get rid of obsolete HQ-61Bs and the HQ-7s can be spares for the remaining ships in the fleet with such system such as 051B until it gets phased out.

Jianghu Vs (053H1G) were purpose built for SCS duty. Considering the 056 has a huge backlog in replacing 037s, Jianghu Is, and Jianghu IIs, I still see these guys doing work horse duty for some time. Also giving them FL-3000Ns, AK-176, and remote 30mms would beef them up cheaply.

Jianghu III (053H2) - I think there is one left so selling it be fine.

That would be my streamline plan as armchair admiral. It would give me a fleet of Jianghu Vs, Jiangwei Is, Jiangwei IIs, and new 056s with same weapons suite in a short timeframe. On the upper end, I would use the 051B, 052, 051C, 052B, and Sovs as such till more 052Cs & Ds come online. Then I phase them out and reuse some in CG fleet. By then, the force would be better standardized.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

A navy with only one class of ships is bad. Naval warfares are like arena fight, you mix the heavy with the light, the capable with the expandable in full expectation that some ships would not survive the battle. It sounds cruel but that's war for you. If every ship in PLAN are 052C class high-tech expansive ships, than PLAN would become so risk-adversive that they would not dare to wander far from the port which defeat the point of having a bluewater navy. Remember how China lost the first Sino-Japanese war? They have very capable ships, but fear too much to lose them and kept them in port. Result? lost the ships, lost the port and lost the war.

There are so many that like to reduce war to measurements of weapsons. Real wars were not fought between weapons, they were fought between humans. In a real war, a small, elite surface fleet is the definition of uselessness. Navy fleet should be there to scare, to intimidate and to take the risk. That's where sandbag ships come in handy, the navy around world use their older, "obsolete" ships, and they have proven to have a vital role in naval battles of history.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

ahadicow said:

...Remember how China lost the first Sino-Japanese war? They have very capable ships, but fear too much to lose them and kept them in port. Result? lost the ships, lost the port and lost the war.....

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My recollection is that the Beiyang fleet suffered from internal corruption and diversion of funds so training was lacking, ammo was short, and maintenance was improper. Those are big factors as well that contributed to the defeat in battle.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

ahadicow said:

A navy with only one class of ships is bad. Naval warfares are like arena fight, you mix the heavy with the light, the capable with the expandable in full expectation that some ships would not survive the battle. It sounds cruel but that's war for you. If every ship in PLAN are 052C class high-tech expansive ships, than PLAN would become so risk-adversive that they would not dare to wander far from the port which defeat the point of having a bluewater navy. Remember how China lost the first Sino-Japanese war? They have very capable ships, but fear too much to lose them and kept them in port. Result? lost the ships, lost the port and lost the war.

There are so many that like to reduce war to measurements of weapsons. Real wars were not fought between weapons, they were fought between humans. In a real war, a small, elite surface fleet is the definition of uselessness. Navy fleet should be there to scare, to intimidate and to take the risk. That's where sandbag ships come in handy, the navy around world use their older, "obsolete" ships, and they have proven to have a vital role in naval battles of history.

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Actually, the Beiyang fleet lost because even though their ships were superior, their men were trash.

If the PLAN all have Type 052C type ships then they would dare to go anywhere in the world confident that their advanced capabilities would protect them (and it probably would). However, this is a waste of resources because it costs a lot to build a 052C and China needs less capable ships for less capable opponents. It's a waste of money to build a 052C for patrolling against The Philippines navy when existing 051's can easily suffice.

Nothing in war is expendable, there is only expendable relative to others. Is a UAV expendable? No, it costs money and resources to build; but in contrast to a manned aircraft, then its worth is vastly inferior. Is a 056 expendable? No, it possesses advanced capabilities and has human lives onboard; but in contrast to a 052C, it is inferior. No navy in the world especially makes ships to take hits for other ships lol. Each ship has its role and if a ship needs to take a hit for another, then the battle/war is probably already lost. However, the concept of "sandbag" still exists.... in today's missiles. Those expensive flying pencils are the new generation sandbags, ships are not. You do NOT mix expendable and capable ships together because no ship is expendable and especially designed to act as sandbags. That might have been the way of warfare in the days of old but it's the 21st century now.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

plawolf said:

The USN actually too the missile launch arms off of their OHP FFGs because it was thought that the air defence protection offered by Burkes was sufficient.

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Actually ther US Navy removed the single arm launchers in 2000 from the Perrys because they were only capable of firing earlier generation Standard SM-1MR, which were outmoded and not capable enough to defend against newer anti-ship missiles, and the US did not want to expend the funds to upgrade them all, particularly with the large numbers of Burke class DDGs, and with the decision already being made at the time to go for a new class of vessel...which has turned into the LCS.

Now, long after the fact, they find that the expense to upgrade those Perry FFGs like Australia, Turkey and Taiwan have done would have been far less expensive and filled a gap that the ultimate capabilities of the LCS has left between that class and the Burkes.

So, now we in the US are looking at a possible new class FFG, when a Perry with the more capable VLS launchers and upgraded data links and cooperative engagement would have been a much cheaper and equally capable solution...albeit not one that will be as stealthy as the potential new FFGs...if they are ever acquired.

IMHO, this is one decision (like taking the S-3s away from the carrier) that the US missed badly on. We now have 20 fairly toothless frigates that they are using for drug interdiction and limited ASW duties...though they are still very capable at that function. They have a 76 mm gun, a 25mm gun, a 20mm CIWS and the helos. No appreciable AAW defense and no anti-surface capability to speak of. They will all be retired now by 2019. With a decent SLEP and upgrades, they could easily have served into the 2030s.

Oh well such is life...and such are the opinions of us arm chair admirals...LOL!