052/052B Class Destroyers

joshuatree · Jan 4, 2013

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

luhai said:
or serve as valuable Diplomatic, test, training platforms. It's nice to have a combat hull to test out new systems, doctrines or just go feel good trips without disturbing the front-line fleet.

I think the existing test ships already serve as platforms for new weapons systems testing. But given the tonnage of these one off/pair classes of ships (051B/052), maybe refit them for the coast guard (if they ever unify or most relevant branch) for extended endurance missions, ie anti-piracy patrols, humanitarian missions, UN missions, etc.

luhai said:
This got me think, perhaps SD-10 based systems would be viable upgrade path for these vessels in the Navy. Tons of HQ-7 based ships in the navy that still have service life left in them. A quad packed 8 cell (or even 16 cell on larger ships) VLS (4m version) may be possible.

The cost of retrofitting would probably be cost prohibitive. Not only that, if an 8 cell had to be specifically be designed for these unique classes, that would further increase the total cost unless there are more ships to spread the development costs around.

Jeff Head said:
I think and easier upgrade to the air defense capabilities of these vessels would be to simply add one or two FL-3000N missile systems to them, particularly and at least in place of any of those 8 cell 8 HQ-7 systems.

I agree with the earlier comment, I think the range of the FL-3000N is shorter than the HQ-7.

Mysterre · Jan 4, 2013

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

joshuatree said:
The cost of retrofitting would probably be cost prohibitive. Not only that, if an 8 cell had to be specifically be designed for these unique classes, that would further increase the total cost unless there are more ships to spread the development costs around.

The Luhai was designed for VLS at least in the front section so it would probably not be cost-prohibitive for this ship. The space below decks in that area is currently devoted to the machinery for the HQ-7 launcher and its reloads. And I can forsee a few choice spots for 2 or even 4 Orekh-type FCR's. But I think a VLS retrofit would only be worthwhile if the PLAN possesses a quad-packable MR SAM.

joshuatree said:
I agree with the earlier comment, I think the range of the FL-3000N is shorter than the HQ-7.

The HQ-7's range is short enough that it essentially can only provide air defense for itself, especially against missiles. In that case the FL-3000N/HQ-10 is IMO far more preferable.

Jeff Head · Jan 4, 2013

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

luhai said:
FL-3000N can be an upgrade option for the small vessels, but range wise it's actually a decrease in capability over the HQ-7 systems.

joshuatree said:
I think the range of the FL-3000N is shorter than the HQ-7.

It may be...I have not seen official figures comparing the two ranges, but I do know that the missiles in the FL-3000N are far superior to the HQ-7 and would be much more effective against incoming cruise missiles...and that is far more important.

I also believe they could house a 18 cell launcher. So they would have many more missiles and much better protection over the HQ-7.

A very nice refit indeed, and I believe, if the FL-3000N is as "standalone" on that deck as the RAM launcher of the US Navy is, it would also be a relatively easy one to make.

adeptitus · Jan 4, 2013

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Generally speaking, the cheapest method to install SAM system to a ship is above-deck box launchers, followed by arm launcher + below-deck magazine, then VLS as the most expensive. Exceptions include the Israeli Barak VLS which is fairly affordable.

Refitting a ship for VLS will require significant deck penetration. However if below deck space is insufficient, you can opt to elevate the VLS platform. See: Type 23 Frigate, Adelaide class frigate.

IMO the cheapest way to upgrade 054 and 51B with existing systems and get the most bang for the buck, is probably to replace the HQ-7 with SA-N-12 (arm launcher) in front and add FL-3000 launcher in the back. The SA-N-12 carries 24 rounds in the magazine and will give a modest boost in medium-range AD. The FL-3000 would give short range "fire and forget" capability vs. multiple targets.

The new VLS system is more powerful and flexible, but likely to be much more expensive as well. Either way, I don't foresee the Chinese Navy doing these upgrades.

drunkmunky · Jan 4, 2013

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

The vls isn't so easy to retrofit. the structural considerations are different, and also the heat dissipation capabilities.

plawolf · Jan 5, 2013

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Heat dissapation is only an issue with hot launch VLS, the new Chinese standard VLS is cold launched. It also comes in a variety of depths, with the smallest only needing 3m of deck penetration.

I am also unconvinced of the need to retrofit VLS onto the 054s or 051Bs. Not every ship in a fleet needs to be a AAW superstar. The 054s and 051Bs would be far more useful focusing on ASW for which VLS only adds a small boost in allowing ASROC weapons to be carried. But in all honesty, it would be just as effective to sacrifice some ASuW capability and have some of the YJ82 launchers replaced with a Chinese ASROC weapon fired from a slightly elevated box launcher from amidships.

Now, if the 054 design had future installation of VLS in mind when it was designed and built, and it would be a relatively easy, speedy and low cost move, by all means bring the 054s up to 054A standard during one of its many scheduled overhauls and upgrades.

If it is going to cost a lot of time and money to make the upgrade, it might be better to just spend a little extra time and money and have the shipyards build a new 054A.

MwRYum · Jan 6, 2013

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

plawolf said:
Heat dissapation is only an issue with hot launch VLS, the new Chinese standard VLS is cold launched. It also comes in a variety of depths, with the smallest only needing 3m of deck penetration.

I am also unconvinced of the need to retrofit VLS onto the 054s or 051Bs. Not every ship in a fleet needs to be a AAW superstar. The 054s and 051Bs would be far more useful focusing on ASW for which VLS only adds a small boost in allowing ASROC weapons to be carried. But in all honesty, it would be just as effective to sacrifice some ASuW capability and have some of the YJ82 launchers replaced with a Chinese ASROC weapon fired from a slightly elevated box launcher from amidships.

Now, if the 054 design had future installation of VLS in mind when it was designed and built, and it would be a relatively easy, speedy and low cost move, by all means bring the 054s up to 054A standard during one of its many scheduled overhauls and upgrades.

If it is going to cost a lot of time and money to make the upgrade, it might be better to just spend a little extra time and money and have the shipyards build a new 054A.

If the new VLS is indeed built to the GJB 5860-2006 requirements, then the hot-launch munitions would have the exhausts comes with the canister modules as well.

On the other hand, it'd be too costly to refit the existing flights of 054 and 054As, if this to be adopted for the future frigates we might be looking at a "054B" design instead, as it'd be more than just the VLS, but a different sensor suite to cater for extended array of munitions as well.

ahadicow · Jan 8, 2013

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

There is no need to retrofit/retire/convert those older ships. The only thing needed done is upgrading their datalink so they can be commanded by 052C and receives target information from them. Their HQ-7 can suppliment MR AA net, they still provide the helipad, platform for AshM SLCM and UAV, and if worst come to worst, they are moveable sandbags for more valueable ships.

joshuatree · Jan 8, 2013

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

MwRYum said:
If the new VLS is indeed built to the GJB 5860-2006 requirements, then the hot-launch munitions would have the exhausts comes with the canister modules as well.

On the other hand, it'd be too costly to refit the existing flights of 054 and 054As, if this to be adopted for the future frigates we might be looking at a "054B" design instead, as it'd be more than just the VLS, but a different sensor suite to cater for extended array of munitions as well.

What sensors are needed for the new VLS?

ahadicow said:
There is no need to retrofit/retire/convert those older ships. The only thing needed done is upgrading their datalink so they can be commanded by 052C and receives target information from them. Their HQ-7 can suppliment MR AA net, they still provide the helipad, platform for AshM SLCM and UAV, and if worst come to worst, they are moveable sandbags for more valueable ships.

If it's the last option, that's where I vote for reassignment to Coast Guard duty. You be far more effective reassigning the seasoned crew to a newer ship, not to mention the morale.

adeptitus · Jan 9, 2013

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

If the Chinese Navy had a system like the Mk. 13, that would be one possible solution with less deck penetration. The latest Mk. 13 upgrades allow the system to fire SM-1, SM-2MR, and Harpoon SSM's with 40 round magazine. Since the missile is fired above-deck, you don't have to worry about the exhaust as much.

Currently the only similar (but more limited) option would be the SA-N-12. The Chinese Navy already operates this system on at least 6 ships, but it's a Russian import and limited in munitions and range. Had the Chinese Navy purchased the GWS-30 Sea Dart from UK earlier and improved upon it, perhaps China would have a domestic version avail today?

If the new VLS system was avail with quad-packed MRSAM's, then refitting for a single 8-cell VLS quad-packed with 32 MRSAM (or 16 MRSAM + 4 ASROC type weapon) would be a great upgrade.

However, I think it's very unlikely that the Chinese Navy would spend the money on such projects. I don't even foresee replacing the HQ-7 with FL-3000N.

052/052B Class Destroyers

joshuatree

Captain

Mysterre

Banned Idiot

Jeff Head

General

adeptitus

Captain

drunkmunky

Junior Member

plawolf

Lieutenant General

MwRYum

Major

ahadicow

Junior Member

joshuatree

Captain

adeptitus

Captain