052/052B Class Destroyers

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

32 cells is just the bow section, you forgot to count the aft VLS cell, let it be 16, 24 or 32. Fot the sake of argument, if the front 32 are loaded with 24 LR, 32 MR in 8x4 quad pack SAM's, leaving the aft cells for AShM, LACM and ASWM. That packing quite a punch for a ship of this size!
I believe aft they will either have three or four groupings of eight, oriented aacross the main axis of the ship. I honestly think it will be 32, but could be 24.

Time will tell. either way, this vessel, if they have also increased the range, efficiency, and computing power associated with the PARs, is going to be a very strong combatant in any case.
 

Mysterre

Banned Idiot
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

32 cells is just the bow section, you forgot to count the aft VLS cell, let it be 16, 24 or 32. Fot the sake of argument, if the front 32 are loaded with 24 LR, 32 MR in 8x4 quad pack SAM's, leaving the aft cells for AShM, LACM and ASWM. That packing quite a punch for a ship of this size!
You're not following the discussion. Plawolf was discussing the possibility of ONLY 32 VLS cells TOTAL on the entire ship and whether that would be sufficient. I am arguing that 32 cells total is insufficient for an escort destroyer.

24 LR missiles is definitely insufficient IMO. Out of a theoretical 64, I have no doubt at least 2/3 of these cells will be devoted entirely to LR SAM's, with the leftovers given over to other missile types.
 

ChinaGuy

Banned Idiot
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I am arguing that 32 cells total is insufficient for an escort destroyer.

It is sufficient if PLAN have more of the ships. This is quite a good possibility since Chinese ships are cheaper to make and cheaper to run. So they can afford to run more of them and keep more eggs in more baskets. Keeping all the missiles on a single ship and have a single point of failure is false economy - one torpedo from a sub and your air defences go down the toilet.

Chinese military strategy will always be based on their natural advantage, that of superior man power. That translates to greater number of platforms. It would be wrong to think the only good strategy possible is that of the US. Chinese strategy will have Chinese characteristics.

Mao said you fight your war, I'll fight mine, and he won. The art of war is all about using the natural advantage: fight down hill; burn the superior equipped, well positioned and dug in indians off the hill tops in the Sino-India war, etc, etc.

Lastly, the Chinese believes in incremental improvement. Their long lasting civilisation tells them they have time. The 52D will be better than 52C. But it will not be revolutionarily better. What's the hurry ? It's not like the US wants a war with China or would allow their puppets to have a war with China - just look how busy Hilary gets every time China gets a bit angry with someone.
 
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Mysterre

Banned Idiot
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

It is sufficient if PLAN have more of the ships. This is quite a good possibility since Chinese ships are cheaper to make and cheaper to run. So they can afford to run more of them and keep more eggs in more baskets. Keeping all the missiles on a single ship and have a single point of failure is false economy - one torpedo from a sub and your air defences go down the toilet.
Which is cheaper, one ship with 64 VLS cells or two ships each with 32 VLS cells? Think about it.

IMO if the 052D only has 32 cells with no rear VLS cell block, it is an automatic fail ship, unequivocally punching below its weight class.

Chinese military strategy will always be based on their natural advantage, that of superior man power. That translates to greater number of platforms. It would be wrong to think the only good strategy possible is that of the US. Chinese strategy will have Chinese characteristics.
Superior manpower does NOT translate into greater number of platforms. The only thing that translates into greater number of platforms is building them. And as flush with money as China is, there is no reason to waste money if you don't have to; "Chinese characteristics" do not have to include stupid waste. In fact it is almost certainly cheaper to redesign the 052C with a lengthened hull in order to accommodate a rear VLS block rather than building an entirely separate ship to house 32 more cells.

Lastly, the Chinese believes in incremental improvement. Their long lasting civilisation tells them they have time. The 52D will be better than 52C. But it will not be revolutionarily better. What's the hurry ? It's not like the US wants a war with China or would allow their puppets to have a war with China - just look how busy Hilary gets every time China gets a bit angry with someone.
I would like to think that incremental improvement does not include going backwards in terms of number of cells a ship can carry. If the 052C platform truly cannot accommodate a CCL design with a similar number of cells as the standard hot-launch VLS or even worse as the standard cold-launch design, then the PLAN should have waited for a new warship that can actually house a sizable number of CCL's instead of taking the risk of bringing a revolver to a gun-fight where everyone else is using semi-autos. Quantity doesn't necessarily mean everything, but it sure as hell means alot.
 

montyp165

Senior Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I for one have no doubts about rear VLS placement numbers, given how each new platform rendition is better than the previous ones.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Which is cheaper, one ship with 64 VLS cells or two ships each with 32 VLS cells? Think about it.

That's a very one-dimensional way of looking at things. Number of VLS cells doesn't mean everything. Even with VLS, one ship can only launch missiles so fast and engage so many targets at once. Twice the ships means twice as many missiles in the air engaging twice as many targets at the same time.

What is better? One ship with 64 VLS cells that gets sunk by 50 incoming missiles in a saturation attack, or two ships with 32 cells each who both survive because between them they were able to launch SAMs fast enough to kill all 50 income AShMs before they impacted?

IMO if the 052D only has 32 cells with no rear VLS cell block, it is an automatic fail ship, unequivocally punching below its weight class.

And why is that? Just because it has 16 fewer cells compared to the 052C? If we take your 75% LR and 25% quad pack ratio, you still get 56 SAMs in total, which is actually more than the 48 the 052C could carry. Add in the likely FL3000 and that's a massive numerical boost no matter how you cut it.

Wrt punching below it's weight, what ships in it's weight class are you comparing it to? With the exception of the Daring, all the others you have listed are way way heavier than the 052C or 052D, even the Daring is quite a bit heavier than the 052C.

I would like to think that incremental improvement does not include going backwards in terms of number of cells a ship can carry. If the 052C platform truly cannot accommodate a CCL design with a similar number of cells as the standard hot-launch VLS or even worse as the standard cold-launch design, then the PLAN should have waited for a new warship that can actually house a sizable number of CCL's instead of taking the risk of bringing a revolver to a gun-fight where everyone else is using semi-autos. Quantity doesn't necessarily mean everything, but it sure as hell means alot.

A warship is not just about adding as many VLS cells onto a hull as it is possible to fit. If the choice was a big sacrifice in performance in order to fit more cells, then not adding more cells would have been the right choice to make. And as I have already pointed out, having a massive number of missiles means very little if you can only guide a fraction of them. Take the AB for example, can it launch and guide all of its 96 cells of missiles at once? Of course not. The USN can afford a stupid number of ABs (well, actually they cannot, but America is willing to mortgage up to it's eyeballs to pay for them, so the USN has that many, but that's beside the point), but for everyone else, money is a finite thing, and choices have to make made.

Yes, having one ship with 96 missile cells is cheaper than operating two with 48 cheap. But, if you are realistically likely to face incoming missile swarms of 50+ missiles per wave, having one ship with 96 cells but which can only direct less than 50 missiles at once is a far worse deal than having two ships with 48 missiles cells cheap but which combined can engage 50+ missiles at once. The cost savings of having one ship instead of two is a false economy, as the savings you make in peacetime would seem inconsequential next to the losses you could take in war time.
 

Yorkie

New Member
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

You're not following the discussion. Plawolf was discussing the possibility of ONLY 32 VLS cells TOTAL on the entire ship and whether that would be sufficient. I am arguing that 32 cells total is insufficient for an escort destroyer.

24 LR missiles is definitely insufficient IMO. Out of a theoretical 64, I have no doubt at least 2/3 of these cells will be devoted entirely to LR SAM's, with the leftovers given over to other missile types.

My bad for not understanging the constraint of 32 cells only. However, in comparison with the 052C's 48 pure HQ9, this ship still has better air defense capability with the split LR/MR load of 56 missiles (i didn't even consider the FN 3000 advantage because that can be retrofitted on the 052C). Remember one thing: a good missile defense requires layers. Having a MR missile in the lineup fills that missing piece of 052C. Let's say there is a saturation attack of 20 vampires in bound, by the time a ship finishes firing 20 LR missiles, the incomings are within MR missile range if they escape the first wave of intercept (and they will). A proper mix is better than all long range, especially if the mix comes with higher numbers!

An Udaloy only carries short range missiles for its own defense, so it shouldn't even be there. The Slava has MR for limited area defense but AAW is not where she shines. So both of those bigger ships are far inferior to the 052D in AAW.
 

Mysterre

Banned Idiot
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

That's a very one-dimensional way of looking at things. Number of VLS cells doesn't mean everything. Even with VLS, one ship can only launch missiles so fast and engage so many targets at once. Twice the ships means twice as many missiles in the air engaging twice as many targets at the same time.

What is better? One ship with 64 VLS cells that gets sunk by 50 incoming missiles in a saturation attack, or two ships with 32 cells each who both survive because between them they were able to launch SAMs fast enough to kill all 50 income AShMs before they impacted?
Like I said, quantity doesn’t mean everything, but it means a lot. And I think you are mistaken about the launch rate of VLS. With VLS fleets, launch rate becomes completely trivial. As in it’s not really even an issue when defending against saturation attacks. An AB equipped with 12 VLS modules can launch 1 round per second per module. In a hypothetical AB equipped with 8 VLA, 16 TLAM, 32 ESSM, and 64 SM-2X missiles, all 64 SM-2’s will be launched within 6 seconds. The ESSM follow-ons will be gone within 4 seconds. That’s 10 seconds to launch every last air defense missile on that ship. Even if a saturation attack were detected at the radar horizon instead of way before like they normally would be and every last enemy missile was a Mach 3 Sunburn, it would still take them 30 seconds to reach the AB after breaking the horizon. That’s the power of VLS right there. In a more realistic scenario an overhead E-2C/D or carrier CAP will have detected the mass of incoming missiles long before they can break the radar horizon of any of the escort ships. The defending ship will have plenty of time to attack and reattack missiles as they close from 170km. When ERAM gets fielded in larger numbers, this range will expand to 240km. So as far as a VLS-equipped ship defending against a saturation attack goes, quantity is supremely important. Launch rate is essentially irrelevant.

As for guidance, both SM-2’s and ESSM’s are periodic mid-course update as needed, with terminal-only SARH. That means each missile requires only a few seconds of terminal illumination, possibly even less than one second, in order to complete its engagement of a target. You can literally have dozens of missiles in the air on autopilot closing and waiting their turn for their target to be illuminated, as the Mark 99’s slew to one target after another in quick succession. Also, have you forgotten that the HQ-9 is ARH? That ANY air defense missile which launches from the 052C/D MUST ABSOLUTELY be ARH? The number of guidance channels on a 052C/D is irrelevant because there are none. They are launched in the direction of their targets and acquire them with their seekers once the targets are in range. At most the 052C will provide periodic midcourse updates as needed until the missile seeker picks up the target.

And why is that? Just because it has 16 fewer cells compared to the 052C? If we take your 75% LR and 25% quad pack ratio, you still get 56 SAMs in total, which is actually more than the 48 the 052C could carry. Add in the likely FL3000 and that's a massive numerical boost no matter how you cut it.
I actually said at least two-thirds LR SAM’s, one-third EVERYTHING ELSE. You can’t decide to not include your vaunted ASW and land attack/strike capabilities to bolster your air defense missile numbers for the sake of discussion. Out of 32 cells, that would be about 21 LR SAM’s, add to that just 4 cells for ASW and 4 cells for strike, and you’ve got 3 cells left for a hypothetical quad-packed missile (which doesn’t even exist as far as anyone knows). That’s 44 air defense missiles, a step down from 48 air defense missiles, all of them long ranged. As for FL3000 I don’t have any comment on that, and TBH neither should you. We’ll just see when that rear hole is filled. Not being currently filled is not a convincing enough argument for FL3000 over Type 730 because there can easily be other reasons for them not wanting to put one in at that location yet, such as more work/installation going on at that location.

As I said, the primary role of the escort destroyer is long range air defense, not medium range air defense. In fact before ESSM’s came out in 2004, AB’s and Tico’s didn’t even have medium ranged air defense because by 1983 the USN had already moved to the Block II missile with its booster and kinematic upgrade to a range of 170km. The ESSM was originally seen as a REPLACEMENT for the Phalanx CIWS, did you know that? That’s why Flight IIA’s didn’t even have CIWS installed initially. These ships were and are viewed by the USN as long range air defense ships before they are seen as anything else. This is yet another reason I see the Daring as a subpar ship. It can’t even quad-pack its Sylvers with Aster 15’s, so it has to make a one-for-one tradeoff with Aster-30’s in order to cover the minimum range of the Aster 30’s.

Wrt punching below it's weight, what ships in it's weight class are you comparing it to? With the exception of the Daring, all the others you have listed are way way heavier than the 052C or 052D, even the Daring is quite a bit heavier than the 052C.
The Zeven Provincien at 6,100t full load is fitted with 40 cells but fitted for 48 cells. The Alvaro de Bazan (F100) at 6,400t full load is fitted with 48 cells. The Hobart class destroyer in development for the RAN will have 48 cells at a displacement of 6,300t.

A warship is not just about adding as many VLS cells onto a hull as it is possible to fit. If the choice was a big sacrifice in performance in order to fit more cells, then not adding more cells would have been the right choice to make. And as I have already pointed out, having a massive number of missiles means very little if you can only guide a fraction of them. Take the AB for example, can it launch and guide all of its 96 cells of missiles at once? Of course not. The USN can afford a stupid number of ABs (well, actually they cannot, but America is willing to mortgage up to it's eyeballs to pay for them, so the USN has that many, but that's beside the point), but for everyone else, money is a finite thing, and choices have to make made.

Yes, having one ship with 96 missile cells is cheaper than operating two with 48 cheap. But, if you are realistically likely to face incoming missile swarms of 50+ missiles per wave, having one ship with 96 cells but which can only direct less than 50 missiles at once is a far worse deal than having two ships with 48 missiles cells cheap but which combined can engage 50+ missiles at once. The cost savings of having one ship instead of two is a false economy, as the savings you make in peacetime would seem inconsequential next to the losses you could take in war time.
As I have already pointed out, launch rate and guidance is far less an issue than you make it out to be. Number of cells is far more an issue when it comes to a VLS ship defending against saturation attacks. And my point is that choices DO NOT have to be made, as if somehow the 052D is already known to have 32 cells. I would be absolutely shocked if this ship had anything less than 48 cells. And your false economy argument is already dead on arrival, as the 052C is known for sure to carry 48 missiles, meaning even if there is some kind of guidance limitation that I do not know about, 48 has been viewed by the PLAN as the number the 052C can handle, either sequentially or simultaneously. So again, 32 would be a definite failure.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

The way i see it, ships can have the following possible qualities: asw self-protection, asw fleet-protection, antiship warfare, selfprotection, fleet protection, land attack and air defense&denial.

It is very important to note the last one. Air defense and air denial. While type 45 is a great ship for selfprotection and fleet protection, its air denial capabilities are somewhat lacking. Burkes with their long ranged sm-2, and especially with the future sm-6, will be great at air denial while perhaps sacrificing some fleet protection capabilities. But we're talking about 052c/d here.

HQ9, like any such missile (s300 and patriot) is not a missile that is very good at anti-missile roles. It's designed to intercept planes at great distances. It is quite possible its actual range is more than usually quoted 120 or 150 km. With proper autopilot, proper rocket engine and proper miniaturised electronics it could be able to cover 200 km.

In most cases, however, it will not be intercepting anything at 200 km or 150 km, even if it has the range. Why? Because enemies will rather opt to fly low. Precisely because of the range. So while it didn't intercept anything, it did deny the agressor the high altitude, and with it, it denied him the radar range and good fuel consumption. That is the air denial part of the role any good AAW destroyer has.

Air denial, however, works only if one has good coverage. that can mean enough ships, but it also means having enough missiles. Because if one lacks enough missiles, the enemy may conclude it is worth risking flying high, trying to evade as many missiles as possible, perhaps endure the interception and then saturate the defender and get in firing range to endanger the fleet.

Historically, even the missile systems that are 10 or so years more advanced than the defender, miss more often than they hit. And that efficiency gets worse still if the missile is a big non-agile fast flyer. Missiles that are technologically behind the defender just 5 or 10 years are even worse. Half a dozen of them may be necessary to score one hit. Sea dart, which was relatively modernized in 1982., and also quite more modern than its targets - required 3 missiles fired per one hit. It is not unimaginable hq9, even if its modernized form, would require double that number.

If 052d ends up carrying 32 hq9 in some mission - it will do worse in air denial role than a 052c. It may be better at fleet protection, of course, but other ships can carry missiles and radars for that. While only 052c/d can use hq9.

If the same 052d is given a different loadout and is carrying 48 hq9 -it will do a bit better in air denial role than 052c, because of its radar. Fleet protection can still be given to other ships, if needed. Naturally, if overall number of vls cells on 052d allows that ship to field not only 48 hq9 but also 64 smaller, fleet protection missiles, its overal effectiveness within the fleet will be much greater.

But at the same time - 32 missiles should be enough for selfdefence, why not play into each ship's strengths? 052d is the one with huge radar arrays and probably brand new air defense suite. it is only normal it should receive missile loadout the maximize those capabilities.

i wouldn't put rocket boosted torpedoes nor LACMs on those ships, at least not with 64 and certainly not with only 48 cells overall.

While there certainly is a need for such missiles as well, other, less expensive ships can do those. Ships without huge radar arrays and advanced defensive suites that cost hundreds of millions of dollars. (PAAMS on each type 45 costs 400 million pounds. It is by far the priciest part of the whole ship) 054a can allegedly carry rocket boosted torpedoes. Great, let them do the job. LACMs can be carried by literally any ship, no sensor is needed for them, just a datalink.

While using a few different ships rather than one multirole class may be more expensive and perhaps even less efficient resource-wise, until a good multirole design is ready - it seems like the only prudent choice. A 7000 ton hull and 64 cells is simply not enough for both a good set of sensors and defensive command suites and a good loadout of various missiles. Especially so if those 64 cells also have to include anti ship missiles. And ESPECIALLY so if we're actually talking about just 48 cells.
 

A.Man

Major
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Is This For 052D's?

中国掌握燃气轮机核心部件技术 成本仅国外1/4
The Chinese master gas turbine core components cost only foreign 1/4

燃气轮机是大型客机、特种船舶和民用发电等领域的主要动力源之一,而涡轮高温叶片及其制造技术则是燃气轮机的核心,也是制约我国燃气轮机发展的主要瓶颈。国外对此严格保密,客观上使我国的大飞机、地面燃机等重大工程均受制于人。2008年上海市科委设立重大研究专项课题,针对当前国际上最先进的F级256MW重型燃气轮机涡轮高温叶片开展技术研究和攻关,由上海大学为主承担。

涡轮叶片的制造原理,是将镍基金属溶液浇铸在模具中,再进行冷却结晶,过程类似于冬天水汽在玻璃窗上遇冷结晶形成“冰花”。涡轮叶片能否耐受高温、是否有足够的强度,和结晶过程中的温度以及晶体形成的数量、甚至方向都有关系。一般来说,晶粒数越少,叶片的耐高温性越好,也越能胜任发电机燃气轮机等高功率设备用途。目前行业内最难的技术,是让整个叶片成为一个晶粒,即“单晶”技术。此外,如果让晶粒有序地向一个方向排列,也能提高叶片强度,避免断裂,此类技术为“定向”技术。通过4年的努力,课题组在上述两种技术路径上均有突破,形成了自己独特的工艺路线。

该项目的成功,不仅有助于我国在燃气轮机关键部件方面突破国外封锁,对于国内发电厂来说也是重大利好消息。以重型燃机的一级涡轮为例,一共有96片高温合金叶片,如果采用国外厂商的产品,一片叶片的制造成本在40万元左右,市场售价达100万元;但如果采用国产叶片,制造成本仅为国外价格的1/4。 (郑远 章迪思 记者王春)

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Auto Translation:

The gas turbine is a modern manufacturing, "the source of power, in which the turbine high temperature blade is one of the core components of the gas turbine. On September 12, the significant special issue of the Science and Technology Commission of Shanghai Municipality "high-temperature alloy blade manufacturing technology research" acceptance by experts.

The gas turbine is one of the main power source for large passenger aircraft, special ships and civilian power generation, the blades of the turbine high temperature manufacturing technology is the core of the gas turbine, gas turbine development in China is also constrained the main bottleneck. Strictly confidential abroad this objective on China's large aircraft, the ground gas turbines and other major projects are being manipulated by others. Shanghai Science and Technology Commission, the establishment of a major study of special topics in 2008, to carry out technical studies and research for the current international state-of-the-art F-class the 256MW heavy duty gas turbine high temperature turbine blades, borne mainly by the Shanghai University.

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The success of the project, will not only help China to break through the blockade of foreign gas turbine key components for domestic power plants, is also great news. Heavy-duty gas turbine of a turbine, for example, a total of 96 high-temperature alloy blades, if the products of foreign manufacturers, a blade manufacturing costs 400,000 yuan, the retail price of 1 million yuan; domestic blade manufacturing cost is only 1/4 of the foreign price. (Zheng Yuan Zhang Leadis reporter Wang)
 
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