052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

One possible reason for the extra large diameter could be the requirement for C802 missile carrage. The C802 is a very big missile, and the large folding fins would require more clearance than sth like harpoon. The 9 metre depth might be required for YJ62/DH10 cruise missiles (just look at the size of the AShM canisters on the 052C).

As for the choice of opting for CCL, well remember that the PLAN has first hand experience operating bother standard central exhaust hot launch VLS and cold launch revolvers, so if they went with CCL over both, they would have done so for very good reasons.

Now that the new common VLS is fact, it would be interesting to see if future 054As are equipped with it as well, and I can we potential problems with that because of the larger size of the new cells, and so would have the VLS' designers, and they would not have made things hard for themselves like that without a very good reason, especially since the US Mk41/57 presented a proven roadmap that they could have followed easier.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

plawolf said:

One possible reason for the extra large diameter could be the requirement for C802 missile carrage. The C802 is a very big missile, and the large folding fins would require more clearance than sth like harpoon. The 9 metre depth might be required for YJ62/DH10 cruise missiles (just look at the size of the AShM canisters on the 052C).

As for the choice of opting for CCL, well remember that the PLAN has first hand experience operating bother standard central exhaust hot launch VLS and cold launch revolvers, so if they went with CCL over both, they would have done so for very good reasons.

Now that the new common VLS is fact, it would be interesting to see if future 054As are equipped with it as well, and I can we potential problems with that because of the larger size of the new cells, and so would have the VLS' designers, and they would not have made things hard for themselves like that without a very good reason, especially since the US Mk41/57 presented a proven roadmap that they could have followed easier.

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Actually apparently the diameter and length measurements include the CCL exhaust system and gas piston (for cold launch), so it is more in line with Mk-41/57 VLS tube dimensions.

And I don't think YJ-62/DH-10 are actually that much larger than the likes of tomahawk, and the VLS depth includes some exhaust mechanisms as well so the numbers make a bit more sense. From wiki, apparently C802 has a folded wingspan of 0.72m. Coupling that with the 0.85m VLS diameter and noting that said diameter of the actual space for missile will likely be a bit smaller (due to CCL exhaust for the tube), an AShM should be able to fit quite comfortably.

Anyway, now we wait for pics of 052D's VLS. If 8 cell modules lack a central exhaust then chances are we are looking at this universal VLS.
This new VLS, when/if it arrives, will be a gamechanger. Once the missiles are integrated it'll give 052D (or whatever large surface combatant equipped with it) near burke payload flexibility. I've always wondered why the USN's Mk 41 could never fire Harpoon. Good thing to know this PLAN VLS is designed to be compatible with some form of AShM.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

This is what it says on China.org.cn

The Chinese navy may be developing a brand new class of guided-missile destroyer, the Type 052D, and would be producing several hulls to reinforce China's naval capabilities, according to a Global Times report.

In recent weeks, Chinese military websites have been buzzing with news that a series of blurry pictures portray the 052D, which military watchers are comparing to the Aegis-equipped destroyers of the U.S. Navy.

Earlier this month, two hulls were pictured at the China State Shipbuilding Corp. Jiangnan Changxing shipyard near Shanghai. One vessel was launched yesterday.

According to China military watchers, as many as 10 Type 052D DDGs could currently be under construction. If true, this would be a departure from the past practices of Chinese shipbuilders, which usually develop one or two hulls and launch a series of tests before entering mass production. Analysts have speculated that Chinese engineers may have become confident enough in the subsystems used on the new destroyer to risk accelerated development.

At 160m long and 18m wide, the Type 052D is slightly larger than its predecessor, the Type 052C, and is believed to weigh in at just over 6,000 tonnes. Reports indicate the vessel will use a Type 346 Active Phased Array Radar System and a Type 518 L-band long-range radar.

Meanwhile, the main 100mm gun on the Type 052C, which has reportedly been unreliable, appears to have been replaced by a new PJ-38 130mm gun. The vessel comes with a helicopter-landing platform and close-in weapon system.

According to China Military News, the new destroyers are equipped with two 32-unit vertical launch systems capable of launching HQ-9B air-defense missiles, anti-ship and anti-submarine missiles. The original YJ-62 missile launchers used on the Type 052C do not appear to be present on the new destroyer. It has been speculated that the Type 052D could be equipped with a naval-style version of the DH-10 land-attack cruise missile.

Defense analysts expect the Type 052D to enter service in 2014.

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re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

as far as i know, harpoon III is made so it can be interfaced with VL systems and be fired from them. earlier harpoons simply weren't designed for that. if one wants, there is little problem to enable a version of antiship missile in such class to be fired from VL systems.

As for the alleged new VLS document - there is one thing that worries me quite a bit. does CCL necesarrily mean we will be looking at circular cells? I hope not, as circular cells are a horrible waste of space. I understand it may be better for cold launch to have circular wells because such wells would be better at withstanding the pressure of a cold launch (while keeping the weight of the cell down, compared to a square well) but i still believe it would be more worthwhile to accept the penalities of a squared cold launch well or even redesign hq9 so it is hot launched, then use round cells.

if c802 indeed has 0.72 meter wingspan when folded, it would mean the width of a square cell could be something like 0.5 meters as the wingspan would go diagonally over the square footprint of the cell. If however the cell is round, then its diameter would have to be 0.72, and basically the entire module would take up as much space as if it had square cells of 0.72 width.

tomahwk with booster is 6.25 meters long, so chinese LACM cant be much bigger than that.

There is the issue of room for exhaust, however. Looking at mk-41, whenever a missile is launched, exhaust gets ejected through a port that is at least 3 by 0.2 meters in area, so at least 0.6 squre meters. Mk-57 module has two ports for exhaust that, when combined, have an area of something like 0,7 squared meters. Since mk57 is designed for larger missiles it is normal that its exhaust was also enlarged.

Even if we assume that all the big missiles wont need exhaust as they will be cold launched, there remains the hq16 and similar missiles which would need something close to the exhaust of sm-2 missiles. that means close to 0.6 square meters, or at least half a square meter.

Now if we have a square that is 850mm wide, we will get an area of 0.72 m2. When one takes the area needed for exhaust, one is left with 0.22 m2 of area for the missile itself. that is something like 450mm in width.

maaaybe one can say that because USN uses boosters on the missiles in mk41, the volume of gases and the pressure is higher than on, for example, a sm-2 that is boosterless. Thus perhaps a boosterless sm-2, and hq16 like it, dont require even 0.5 square meters, but perhaps just 0.4 m2. But then what of vertically launched antiship weapons? will those have to cold launched as well? what of rocket assisted torpedoes? present VLS on 054a is said to be able to handle them, and that is clearly purely a hot launch system with a pretty big exhaust.

The fact that the exhaust port on 054a VLS is not really smaller than one on mk-41 actually refutes the above claim.

If the cell is round, it gets even worse, as the area is then just 0.57 m2, which when adjusted for the portion for hot gas exhaust, gets reduced to mere decimeter squared or so.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

10 makes sense, that makes total of 16 x Type 052C/D, 4 per flotilla and 4 flotillas 2 for ESF, 1 for SSF and 1 x NSF

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

hmmwv said:

It's a hard requirement to have independent exhaust because the system will be able to mix cold and hot launch cells, yes CCL is not as compact as a traditional cell but the overall module size isn't that much bigger because the removal of a centralized exhaust system.

I'm puzzled by the extremely large canister diameter limit too, the only thing I can think of is that they are planning on quad pack a future variant of HQ16, probably a skinnier one with 30km effective engagement range to fill the gap between HQ10 and HHQ9.

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The only way to cold launch using CCL is if the ejection system is also completely enclosed inside the module. This means additional space requirements, meaning if the cold launch CCL cell is the same size as surrounding hot launch cells, by necessity it would have to use a smaller missile, possibly a much smaller missile. If the number "0.85m/cell" is correct, then I don't see how they would be able to quad-pack HQ-16's in there since that number also represents the venting system. I'm not even sure they could quad-pack HQ-10's in there. And let's not even talk about the guidance radars that would be required for both of these missiles (which we so far don't even know exists on the 052D), even the HQ-10 since it would be launching blind (vertically) and would not be able to acquire diddly squat without external cueing.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

What's the chance that they would go back to retrofit existing type 052Cs with the new CCL VLS?

Maybe they won't change them since the two new type052C launched still has the old revolver cells?

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

no_name said:

What's the chance that they would go back to retrofit existing type 052Cs with the new CCL VLS?

Maybe they won't change them since the two new type052C launched still has the old revolver cells?

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That will depend on how much international changes they have to make to install the new VLS and may also depend on whether there was any widening of the hull.

If there isn't that many internal differences and the hull is the same width between the 052C and 052D, there is a chance they might retrofit them when they are due for their mid-life overhaul.

I think the odds of the new built 052C+ being retrofitted would be much higher than the originals, considering the short time between the 052C+ and 052D, I think there is a good chance the specs for the universal VLS would have been finalized when the 052C+ were being designed and built, and as such, there would be a good chance they were designed to be easily retrofitted at a later time.

In addition, if the new VLS is indeed CCL, there is no need to put in VLC in 8 cell blocks. If they cannot quite fit 32 cells in the old space, they could just put in 28, or however many they can fit in the space available. This may be one of the main reasons the PLAN has opted for CCL in the first place - making the VLS easily retrofitted to it's existing fleet, and also being able to use it's existing missile inventory instead of having to invest in a totally new line of missiles as well.

The same may well apply to 054As. Indeed, it would be interesting to look at the 054A production run to see if there are any noticeable delays until when the next batch is launched.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

asif iqbal said:

10 makes sense, that makes total of 16 x Type 052C/D, 4 per flotilla and 4 flotillas 2 for ESF, 1 for SSF and 1 x NSF

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Well, not quite. You are forgetting the two 052B in SSF. I think it will most likely be 8, so the total becomes 4 in NSF, 4 in ESF and 8 052B/052C in SSF.

The remaining two flotillas have 4 Pr. 956E/ME and 2 051C/2 052.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

marine forum seems to have pretty good discussions on the type 052D. They even predicted hot/cold combined VLS back in June before the pics came out. Is in french but Google translated link does a decent job.