052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

franco-russe said:

Well, not quite. You are forgetting the two 052B in SSF. I think it will most likely be 8, so the total becomes 4 in NSF, 4 in ESF and 8 052B/052C in SSF.

The remaining two flotillas have 4 Pr. 956E/ME and 2 051C/2 052.

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that is true, but by the time the last Type 052D join i think Type 052B will be older class? i was saying that based on the assumption they would be replaced, but then i think you maybe right since they could be upgraded they are only 8+ years old maybe 15+ years old by the time Type 052D joins them which is still quite young for a DDG

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

MwRYum said:

Have yet seen anyone said about this but stumbled on this thing when they discuss about the 052D...

GJB 5860-2006(K)

For those who don't what is "GJB", that's the Chinese equivalent of MIL-STD (in fact, "GJB" or "国家军用标准/Guojia Junyong Biaozhun" emulate MIL-STD system); and that in particular concerning the rumored new VLS system, designed to utilize all the new missiles - SAM / ASROC / cruise missile - the "true Chinese version of MK41 VLS system".

Anyway, in the coming months we'll know the answers.

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Yes, all of our comment has been based on what we saw in this document. Everyone should read it. It's a very informative document on it. Including stats like ejection time, how many missiles can be launched at once, how fast must the lid open and such.

Bltizo said:

posted by hhg over on cdf

So clearly the VLS is the new universal CCL design due to the lack of a central exhaust vent. This is a huge development.

Now of course it is of interest to see whether the aft has a VLS station as well, and to do a total count. But it's a safe bet to assume this is the VLS talked about in that MIL STD. Now it'll be a wait for confirmation that it can fire all the various types of missiles it claims (though we can use common sense to assume a few)

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I think this is the aft VLS. It's also possible this is from one of the test ships although I think aft VLS is a better explanation.

Totoro said:

even though we are probably looking at bow VLS, for some reason that image of VLS looks like there isn't any part of the ship in the background, meaning it looks like a VLS put up high up. Perhaps stern VLS after all? But everything else just screams that it is unlikely there is a stern VLS bay at all.

So the VLS cells aren't circular in the end?

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i think it's the one between the Volume search radar and hangar platform.

asif iqbal said:

well if China has indeed developed a Universal VLS system of class Mk41 then that is a massive development

this means China is only a handful of nations that can launch land attack cruise missiles from a VLS system, as far as i know Japanese DDGs cant provide Tomahawk, but there is one DDG in the region that can, and that is the South Korean King Sejong the Great class destroyer, that DDG is in a class of its own, carrying 80 VLS + 48 VLS, totaling 128 missiles more than Areligh Burke and can launch land attack cruise missiles, South Korea really has something special there

if Type 052D has 48 VLS + 32 VLS thats 80 missiles that would be a milestone development but still behind South Korea DDGs, but then bigger more powerful Type 058 would really be the equivlent

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Really unlikely 052D can carry that many based on its size and how large this CCL system is.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

tphuang said:

Yes, all of our comment has been based on what we saw in this document. Everyone should read it. It's a very informative document on it. Including stats like ejection time, how many missiles can be launched at once, how fast must the lid open and such.



I think this is the aft VLS. It's also possible this is from one of the test ships although I think aft VLS is a better explanation.



i think it's the one between the Volume search radar and hangar platform.



Really unlikely 052D can carry that many based on its size and how large this CCL system is.

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By what I can scrape together this specification requirement calls for a VLS system capable to handle both hot- and cold-launches; specifications for hot- and cold-launch canister are covered in sections 6.2 and 6.3 respectively, in short:
1. hot-launch canister construct in the form of outer-and-inner tubing, the gap in between is used to safely vent the launch exhaust;
2. cold-launch canister is fully self contained, including the munition and the required gas ejection system and other systems.

Also, the specification calls for a launch interval no less then 1s (section 4.1.5); section 5.1.3 calls for canisters in 3 sizes - for contents no longer than 9m / 7m / 3.3mm respectively...does that translate as the CJ-10 is about 9m long at launch?

This is by far the only venue I can read without membership requirement:

tieba.baidu.com/p/1833438372

If that's the case, the canister comes with almost everything and no longer require the VLS to provide a common exhaust port, in a way akin to the MK57 in development by the US.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

The maximum number of VLS is probably only 64, however i have seen pictures of box launched DH-10 or CJ-10 LACM's on one of those testing ships. Is that for the Type 052D ? Or are they going to retrofit them on the 052C's ?

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

mk57 does have a common exhaust port. mk57 features a 4-cell module. this new vls seems to be a 8-cell module, but where each cell is modular and can have either a container with its own exhaust or a container with no exhaust but made for cold launch. that may mean that hot launch containers are square while cold launch containers are round. of course, we couldnt see that underneath those square lids.

and there is still no reason there isnt 64 cells in the front of the ship. images show a very compact layout of a 8-cell module and the VLS bay in the front of the ship is freaking huge.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

antiterror13 said:

Hi Asif. With all the speculations of 052D, what do you think this baby compared to British Type 45, it seems both will have no conventional layout of AshM (angle). If let's say Type 45 is 100%, how would you rank this 052D. remember it seems the AESA radars on 052D look much bigger than on Type 45, does it tell you a lot ?

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there is no doubt Type 052C and 052D are world class DDGs, fit for multi mission capability’s and deployments, we know what they carry and specifications we know what they can do, but question is how well can they do it, there is so much information that is not disclosed and probably never will be

for example, Type 45 DDGs have had extensive coverage, we have seen interviews from radar operators to details of joint exercises, and it is one formidable surface combatant, one reason why the SAMPSON radar sits so high is because that is the height it has to be to see in excess of 400km and its tracking of low level targets is second to none

in one exercise a Type 45 engaged a RAF Typhoon from a high speed high angle attack, the Typhoon pilot had several runs and on every occasion he was engaged, this was while the DDG maintained an area air defence over an entire task force!

recently Type 45 came back from Falklands rotation, that part of the world has very rough and tough weather conditions, local ocean features have sleep slopes and winds can reach very high speeds, even migrating birds produce very complicated patterns in the sky that confuse the world’s best radars, Type 45 can see all that process it, identify what it’s looking at and where and categorise the threat level and take out anything within a certain radius, this ship is truly amazing to say the least, as for its acceleration, it is outstanding, but then it would be since its powered by Rolls Royce

how good is Type 052D in that sense, how good are the radar operators, etc etc we just don’t know, so to give it % out of 100 I would not like to say, but for anything to come close to a Type 45 DDG, is a very tall order, sure it only has 48 missiles but that’s all it would ever need, if it was engage by 12 x anti-ship missiles all at the same time, in all honestly it would down every single one of them

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

asif iqbal said:

well if China has indeed developed a Universal VLS system of class Mk41 then that is a massive development

this means China is only a handful of nations that can launch land attack cruise missiles from a VLS system, as far as i know Japanese DDGs cant provide Tomahawk, but there is one DDG in the region that can, and that is the South Korean King Sejong the Great class destroyer, that DDG is in a class of its own, carrying 80 VLS + 48 VLS, totaling 128 missiles more than Areligh Burke and can launch land attack cruise missiles, South Korea really has something special there

if Type 052D has 48 VLS + 32 VLS thats 80 missiles that would be a milestone development but still behind South Korea DDGs, but then bigger more powerful Type 058 would really be the equivlent

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Let's not get ahead of ourselves. We have not yet identified any LACM's which could be launched from this VLS. It also presupposes a mission which we have as of yet not ever seen being associated with PLAN warships (i.e. land attack).

Totoro said:

mk57 does have a common exhaust port. mk57 features a 4-cell module. this new vls seems to be a 8-cell module, but where each cell is modular and can have either a container with its own exhaust or a container with no exhaust but made for cold launch. that may mean that hot launch containers are square while cold launch containers are round. of course, we couldnt see that underneath those square lids.

and there is still no reason there isnt 64 cells in the front of the ship. images show a very compact layout of a 8-cell module and the VLS bay in the front of the ship is freaking huge.

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64 cells is the absolute maximum number of cells that can fit in the front of the ship IF the VLS modules were all the size of the Mk 41. If every indication is correct that this VLS is much bigger, there is no way you could fit 64 cells in the front. I would guess four 2x4 cell modules = 32 cells arranged lengthwise is the maximum you could fit in the front, and the same number arranged beam-wise in the back, assuming there is even an aft VLS section to begin with, just like many of the CGI's we have seen. I had pointed out earlier that these same CG's had overestimated the size of the VLS modules. Now I know why.

The other problem I see with this system is the lack of down-scaleability. You certainly could not retrofit this system into a 54A without losing significant numbers of cells (specifically, half). Meaning you would have two types of VLS in the PLAN, a larger system for destroyer-sized ships and up, and a smaller system for frigate-sized ships and down. If a VLS ever makes it onto a carrier, I would hazard a guess and say it would also have to use the smaller VLS in its sponsons, like the one on the 054A.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

there are issues with the new supposed layout and concept, that i agree with. it is not efficient space-wise and may prove not modular enough and not applicable to a wide variety of ships.

that being said, the newest images show a pretty damn compact 8-cell module. even if the each lid is like a meter by meter, the whole module is not over 5 by 3.5 meters. That is just a worst case scenario eyeballing. Edges may account for less than that. And of course, if it is true that both the cell and the exhaust maanged to fit within 850 wide container, the lid may be a bit smaller, perhaps just 0.9 meters.

052c front vls bay is noticably larger than tico's. Tico's mk41 has 64 cells there. even when one takes into account the slant position of hq9 and projects a new width for pure vertical storage, there is still, at worst, some 8.5 by 11 meters of VLS bay.

So, depending on the true size of the new cells, which we do not know, there may be 64 cells there and they still may be bigger than mk41.

we just don't know yet. Truth be told, i am much more sceptic bout any sort of rear VLS bay on 052d. if one wanted to store 32 cells there, one would completely cut off the communication between hangar and front of the ship. Therefore i see two of those 8 cell modules as maximum for aft placement, but i frankly would not be surprised if there are no VLS cells aft, with regular ashm launchers being placed there.

so 48-64 in front and 0-16 aft.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Totoro said:

that being said, the newest images show a pretty damn compact 8-cell module. even if the each lid is like a meter by meter, the whole module is not over 5 by 3.5 meters. That is just a worst case scenario eyeballing. Edges may account for less than that. And of course, if it is true that both the cell and the exhaust maanged to fit within 850 wide container, the lid may be a bit smaller, perhaps just 0.9 meters.

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TBH, you have no idea how compact the 8-cell module is because there is nothing in the background to compare it to. You have also forgotten the spaces between the cells that are needed for structural rigidity and integrity, since it is obvious these modules are built in 2x4 cell arrangements.

Totoro said:

052c front vls bay is noticably larger than tico's. Tico's mk41 has 64 cells there.

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Sorry, but that is just flat out wrong. I don't know how you could have come to such a conclusion. Go look at the differences in beam and you will recognize this immediately.

Totoro said:

So, depending on the true size of the new cells, which we do not know, there may be 64 cells there and they still may be bigger than mk41.

we just don't know yet. Truth be told, i am much more sceptic bout any sort of rear VLS bay on 052d. if one wanted to store 32 cells there, one would completely cut off the communication between hangar and front of the ship. Therefore i see two of those 8 cell modules as maximum for aft placement, but i frankly would not be surprised if there are no VLS cells aft, with regular ashm launchers being placed there.

so 48-64 in front and 0-16 aft.

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Not really. The 052C has passageways at the very edges of the ship both port and starboard. It is highly unlikely a rear VLS will have to cut these off in order to exist. And even if the VLS is 3 decks tall it would still not penetrate into the propulsion deck at the bottom, which could serve as a conduit between forward and aft if all else fails. The real question isn't whether bow to aft movement is cut off, but whether the 052C has enough spare room to house the ENTIRETY of the aft VLS section in its innards, because that's what it would take. It would have been far better IMO to utilize much of the space already provided by the two vacated VLS revolvers in the back and expanding on that space, since it already sits three decks above the helipad level and would be much less intrusive to the interior spaces. The downside of course is that a big VLS section placed high on the ship will worsen stability issues. The compromise of course is that some of the volume displaced by an aft VLS will get transferred to where the revolvers used to be. Nonetheless an aft VLS section will still hog alot of volume. This combined with the inconvenient location (too many close-by walls) reminds me of the 051C, an abortive Frankenstein's monster with mismatched parts. If they are going to use a new standard CCL-type VLS, it's time for them to build a larger ship designed for it in the first place.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Totoro said:

there are issues with the new supposed layout and concept, that i agree with. it is not efficient space-wise and may prove not modular enough and not applicable to a wide variety of ships.

that being said, the newest images show a pretty damn compact 8-cell module. even if the each lid is like a meter by meter, the whole module is not over 5 by 3.5 meters. That is just a worst case scenario eyeballing. Edges may account for less than that. And of course, if it is true that both the cell and the exhaust maanged to fit within 850 wide container, the lid may be a bit smaller, perhaps just 0.9 meters.

052c front vls bay is noticably larger than tico's. Tico's mk41 has 64 cells there. even when one takes into account the slant position of hq9 and projects a new width for pure vertical storage, there is still, at worst, some 8.5 by 11 meters of VLS bay.

So, depending on the true size of the new cells, which we do not know, there may be 64 cells there and they still may be bigger than mk41.

we just don't know yet. Truth be told, i am much more sceptic bout any sort of rear VLS bay on 052d. if one wanted to store 32 cells there, one would completely cut off the communication between hangar and front of the ship. Therefore i see two of those 8 cell modules as maximum for aft placement, but i frankly would not be surprised if there are no VLS cells aft, with regular ashm launchers being placed there.

so 48-64 in front and 0-16 aft.

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It's cramp because the 052B/C/D hull is too damn small, if the hull is as big as the Arleigh Burke class it'd be better, but like many have said before, one thing at a time...should it becomes reality, this "052D" would most likely a testbed of sort before they proceed to new design with larger hull that can fit more of this new VLS modules.

When you said

052c front vls bay is noticably larger than tico's.

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please remember that the cold-launch system doesn't make use of its footprint 100% for its payload - there's a big loading crane in the middle, with missiles loaded in 6 roulette, 6 shots for each...but this "new system" utilize the footprint more efficiently; given how big the CJ-10 cruise missile is, they don't have much choice - if only the Chinese can shrink it down to the size of Tomahawk.

In any case, if all those things panned out, this'd be the first true multi-role destroyer in Chinese history, ever...it might be a stop-gap or testbed in reality, but a historical landmark nonetheless.