052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Mysterre said:

Well the point is that they should not be compared to 054A's at all, since they are destroyers and perform the role of destroyers, no matter what they are called officially.

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...and, no matter what they are called, when it comes down to it, if they ever face each other, it will be a French Carrier with Horizon vessels and FREMM vessels, against a PLAN Carrier with Type 052C vessels and Type 054A vessels...that's why it is valid to make the comparison.

You go to the dance with the shoes you have to wear that are in your closet or on your feet.

US will have their carrier and Tico Cruiers and Burke DDGs.

UK will ulktimatley have their new carrier, Daring DDGs, and their GCS Type 26 Frigates.

Until each of these countries builds something different to fit into those slots for carrier, primary escorts and secondary escorts, that's what they have to contend with...to "dance" with so to speak.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

...and, no matter what they are called, when it comes down to it, if they ever face each other, it will be a French Carrier with Horizon vessels and FREMM vessels, against a PLAN Carrier with Type 052C vessels and Type 054A vessels...that's why it is valid to make the comparison.

You go to the dance with the shoes you have to wear that are in your closet or on your feet.

US will have their carrier and Tico Cruiers and Burke DDGs.

UK will ulktimatley have their new carrier, Daring DDGs, and their GCS Type 26 Frigates.

Until each of these countries builds something different to fit into those slots for carrier, primary escorts and secondary escorts, that's what they have to contend with...to "dance" with so to speak.

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Yes, but what you are doing now is comparing a carrier group to a carrier group, which is fine and dandy, but comparing a FREMM to a 054A is not exactly playing by the rules. Just because a USN CVBG has Tico's and Burkes and a PLAN CVBG has 052C's and 054A's doesn't mean it somehow becomes legitimate to compare a Tico to a 052C and a Burke to a 054A on an individual basis.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Mysterre said:

Yes, but what you are doing now is comparing a carrier group to a carrier group, which is fine and dandy, but comparing a FREMM to a 054A is not exactly playing by the rules. Just because a USN CVBG has Tico's and Burkes and a PLAN CVBG has 052C's and 054A's doesn't mean it somehow becomes legitimate to compare a Tico to a 052C and a Burke to a 054A on an individual basis.

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There are no rules when the shooting starts.

My point is simple...that is what they will go into battle with.

So you better compare your capabilities on a ship by ship basis with the OpFor's capabilities on a ship by ship basis and prepare accrodingly.

They are not, in such a situations being compared as CG vs DDG, or DDG vs FFG...at that point, that will no longer matter, they are being compared as to opposing forces and what is available to them each for offense and defense.

Whether it is a CSG or a SAG, the likely combatants on the PLAN side are Type 052C abd Type 054A (or maybe including the Sovs or Type 05B or Type 051C), vs. Tico and Burkes (US), Darings and Type 26 (UK) or Horizon and FREMM (France and Italy), so you can bet that even now, the naval planners are comparing precisely those platforms and working out strategies to avoid weaknesses of their own, and capitalize on weakneeses of the opposition by employing whatever strengths they can bring to the party.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

There are no rules when the shooting starts.

My point is simple...that is what they will go into battle with.

So you better compare your capabilities on a ship by ship basis with the OpFor's capabilities on a ship by ship basis and prepare accrodingly.

They are not, in such a situations being compared as CG vs DDG, or DDG vs FFG...at that point, that will no longer matter, they are being compared as to opposing forces and what is available to them each for offense and defense.

Whether it is a CSG or a SAG, the likely combatants on the PLAN side are Type 052C abd Type 054A (or maybe including the Sovs or Type 05B or Type 051C), vs. Tico and Burkes (US), Darings and Type 26 (UK) or Horizon and FREMM (France and Italy), so you can bet that even now, the naval planners are comparing precisely those platforms and working out strategies to avoid weaknesses of their own, and capitalize on weakneeses of the opposition by employing whatever strengths they can bring to the party.

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I think the most likely scenario will be like the battle of Midway and the Falkland War. Aircrafts against ships rather than ships against ships. Even if PLAN fleet is operating with-out aircraft carriers, they will will most likely stay within combat range of shore based aircrafts. Modern Ships are deploying with more defensive weapons than offensive ones, specifically air defence weapons, for self protection.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

There are no rules when the shooting starts.

My point is simple...that is what they will go into battle with.

So you better compare your capabilities on a ship by ship basis with the OpFor's capabilities on a ship by ship basis and prepare accrodingly.

They are not, in such a situations being compared as CG vs DDG, or DDG vs FFG...at that point, that will no longer matter, they are being compared as to opposing forces and what is available to them each for offense and defense.

Whether it is a CSG or a SAG, the likely combatants on the PLAN side are Type 052C abd Type 054A (or maybe including the Sovs or Type 05B or Type 051C), vs. Tico and Burkes (US), Darings and Type 26 (UK) or Horizon and FREMM (France and Italy), so you can bet that even now, the naval planners are comparing precisely those platforms and working out strategies to avoid weaknesses of their own, and capitalize on weakneeses of the opposition by employing whatever strengths they can bring to the party.

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Like I said, what you are doing now is comparing a carrier group to a carrier group and how the elements within the group will function, which is fine. Earlier you were comparing a FREMM to a 054A on an individual basis, a "frigate" to frigate comparison on their own merits rather than their function within a carrier group, which as I said is not a rational comparison since they are not the same class of vessel.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

There are no rules when the shooting starts.

My point is simple...that is what they will go into battle with.

So you better compare your capabilities on a ship by ship basis with the OpFor's capabilities on a ship by ship basis and prepare accrodingly.

They are not, in such a situations being compared as CG vs DDG, or DDG vs FFG...at that point, that will no longer matter, they are being compared as to opposing forces and what is available to them each for offense and defense.

Whether it is a CSG or a SAG, the likely combatants on the PLAN side are Type 052C abd Type 054A (or maybe including the Sovs or Type 05B or Type 051C), vs. Tico and Burkes (US), Darings and Type 26 (UK) or Horizon and FREMM (France and Italy), so you can bet that even now, the naval planners are comparing precisely those platforms and working out strategies to avoid weaknesses of their own, and capitalize on weakneeses of the opposition by employing whatever strengths they can bring to the party.

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But I don't see in near future PLAN vs RN or French Navy or US Navy .. it would lead to WW3 and escalated to nuke war.

These ships just a nice expensive toys to scare the monkeys, nothing else, it won't be used against any major power, at least in the near future .. just enjoy it and hope it never be used ...

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

antiterror13 said:

But I don't see in near future PLAN vs RN or French Navy or US Navy .. it would lead to WW3 and escalated to nuke war.

These ships just a nice expensive toys to scare the monkeys, nothing else, it won't be used against any major power, at least in the near future .. just enjoy it and hope it never be used ...

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I agree. Comparing major world navies is just an "academic" exercice. Something that military fans love to do. But almost certainly will never happen.

The US and USSR´s navies engaged in a far more confrontational relationship during 45 years (and soviet navy was more powerful than PLAN today). Barring the cuba crisis of 1962, nothing ever came out of it. Just a monumental waste of resources.

I think that its ok to discuss PLAN ships, but futile to compare to others. China only started building modern warships 20 years ago. They still have a long way to go. Perhabs we may have this discussion in 20 years but not now.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

kroko said:

I agree. Comparing major world navies is just an "academic" exercice. Something that military fans love to do. But almost certainly will never happen.

The US and USSR´s navies engaged in a far more confrontational relationship during 45 years (and soviet navy was more powerful than PLAN today). Barring the cuba crisis of 1962, nothing ever came out of it. Just a monumental waste of resources.

I think that its ok to discuss PLAN ships, but futile to compare to others. China only started building modern warships 20 years ago. They still have a long way to go. Perhabs we may have this discussion in 20 years but not now.

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I respectfully disagree. Comparing PLAN's ships to other navies is valid as the Chinese technological catchup is unprecedented in world history. Your example is like saying the Chinese economy should be compared to others in another 20 years because they've only been developing a powerful economy for 20 years. Although I doubt the ships would be used too, it is still valid to compare them.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Yeapp, we all agree, they won't be used in real war (we are hoping), but it is fun to discuss it again and again .....

They are useful for deterrent purpose for other first rate countries ..... and of course to scare second or third rate countries

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

CottageLV said:

Type 45 is still much more advanced. It's engine supplier is Rolls Royce, one of the best in the world. They have access to the latest electronics, similar to those in the USN. Their weaponry are almost 100% American, except for some minor guns. They have one of the oldest continuous professional navy in the world. I'm sure they know how to properly build ships.

The most important of all are their personnel. They have a long tradition being a professional navy. Centuries of experiences make them really good at training the best sailors and officers. Even the mighty German fleet can't defeat them in the high seas.

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And I am sure being outnumbered some 2 to 1 has nothing to do with their victory in Jutland. Because you are talking about Jutland, right? Because there is no other point in history the German Fleet came closer to that of the UK's.

And I won't rate naval tradition that high. The Americans and the Japanese both surpassed the RN by WWII. It's nice to have a continuous naval tradition but there will come a point when pass experience just isn't all that relevant. I mean, how does rig discipline the RN perfected help with running a boomer? And of course, skills do decay and without the USN's able support I doubt the RN would be able to get back to CTOL naval aviation with anything like the same sort of rapidity they are expecting.

---------- Post added at 03:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:57 AM ----------

CottageLV said:

JMSDF upgrades their ships and submarines very quickly. A new class comes out every few years and new technologies are constantly being added and tested. Unlike USN and Soviet navy, which builds a ship class for 2- 3 decades, Japanese are able to always have the latest and most advanced ships. In time of needs, they can easily mass produce the ships of the latest design.

If you look at Japanese submarine fleet with Chinese standard, they actually have 60-70 advanced subs, around 25 of those in active service. They retire a sub every year. The retired ones are still very new by Western and Eastern standard, they are being constantly serviced and maintained, ready to go into combat very quickly. Even some of their oldest subs are still only as old as some Chinese sub half way into service lifetime.

If wasn't because of American restrictions on their military expansion. The Japanese Imperial navy, aka JMSDF, could easily approach the size of the USN, at least 3/4 the size.

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And where do they plan on digging out 8 nuclear powered carriers?

The rest of the WORLD cannot match the USN in the foreseeable future, nevermind Japan.

---------- Post added at 04:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:58 AM ----------

Jeff Head said:

There are no rules when the shooting starts.

My point is simple...that is what they will go into battle with.

So you better compare your capabilities on a ship by ship basis with the OpFor's capabilities on a ship by ship basis and prepare accrodingly.

They are not, in such a situations being compared as CG vs DDG, or DDG vs FFG...at that point, that will no longer matter, they are being compared as to opposing forces and what is available to them each for offense and defense.

Whether it is a CSG or a SAG, the likely combatants on the PLAN side are Type 052C abd Type 054A (or maybe including the Sovs or Type 05B or Type 051C), vs. Tico and Burkes (US), Darings and Type 26 (UK) or Horizon and FREMM (France and Italy), so you can bet that even now, the naval planners are comparing precisely those platforms and working out strategies to avoid weaknesses of their own, and capitalize on weakneeses of the opposition by employing whatever strengths they can bring to the party.

Click to expand...

I agree with the following proviso - by the time the PLAN carrier achieves IOC (call it 2016 - and that's just the CV, the CVBG will take longer - call it 2020+), I'd be very much surprised if they didn't have newer fleet combatants. I also have some issues as to whether the 054A can keep up with a PLAN CVBG.