052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

i.e. said:

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I don't think t45 is that much better than 052C. sure it is nice.
but 052Cs were doing trials in SCS for 3-4 years after the initial leadships and they worked out alot of their bugs. actually i would rate 052C as a much more mature ssytem then type 45.

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Type 45 is still much more advanced. It's engine supplier is Rolls Royce, one of the best in the world. They have access to the latest electronics, similar to those in the USN. Their weaponry are almost 100% American, except for some minor guns. They have one of the oldest continuous professional navy in the world. I'm sure they know how to properly build ships.

The most important of all are their personnel. They have a long tradition being a professional navy. Centuries of experiences make them really good at training the best sailors and officers. Even the mighty German fleet can't defeat them in the high seas.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

franco-russe said:

Do they, really? The only abominable thing I can see about the AQUITAINE is the (ridiculously small) 76 mm gun, where there ought to have been a 127 mm. But the pennant number is D650, which really does not denote a frigate…

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Agreed. The Frigate designation is purely political...but the vessels are very capable. France is going to build 11 of them. (Actually 12, but one is going to Morocco I believe).


French FREMM Vessel with 76mm main gun

True, multi-mission vessels with very good capabilities. Even the 76mm gun, though smaller bore than the 5" guns, is still very good at what it does within its range...and the AAW, ASuW, and...with the capability of hangers for two helos...excellent ASW capbilities, and with the 16 SCALP cruise missiles, they have a decent land attack capability as well. They are outstanding for a vessel of 6,000 tons.

The Italians are going to build ten and I believe on their GP version they have the 127mm gun and a 76mm gun, and two 76mm guns on the other variant.


Italian GP FREMM vessel with 127mm main gun (and a 76mm gun seen aft over the hangar)

I know the UK is anxious to start building and receiving their version, now called, the Global Combat Ship (GCS) Type 26 FFGs and will build 13 of them (supposedly 8 ASW and 5 AAW variants)...but the 1st is still a pitiful long ways off, not due to enter service until something like 2012...nine years, and thereafter only at the rate of one per year!

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

CottageLV said:

Type 45 is still much more advanced. It's engine supplier is Rolls Royce, one of the best in the world. They have access to the latest electronics, similar to those in the USN. Their weaponry are almost 100% American, except for some minor guns. They have one of the oldest continuous professional navy in the world. I'm sure they know how to properly build ships.

The most important of all are their personnel. They have a long tradition being a professional navy. Centuries of experiences make them really good at training the best sailors and officers. Even the mighty German fleet can't defeat them in the high seas.

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WHAT!? Type 45 Daring class's main air defense system is the "Sea Viper air defence system". 48 SYLVER A50 VLS carrying either Aster 15 or Aster 30. It uses Phalanx CIWS and could use AGM-84 Harpoon and BGM-109 Tomahawk but it is an "Air Defence Destroyer" and it primary system is NOT American - .

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

JMSDF upgrades their ships and submarines very quickly. A new class comes out every few years and new technologies are constantly being added and tested. Unlike USN and Soviet navy, which builds a ship class for 2- 3 decades, Japanese are able to always have the latest and most advanced ships. In time of needs, they can easily mass produce the ships of the latest design.

If you look at Japanese submarine fleet with Chinese standard, they actually have 60-70 advanced subs, around 25 of those in active service. They retire a sub every year. The retired ones are still very new by Western and Eastern standard, they are being constantly serviced and maintained, ready to go into combat very quickly. Even some of their oldest subs are still only as old as some Chinese sub half way into service lifetime.

If wasn't because of American restrictions on their military expansion. The Japanese Imperial navy, aka JMSDF, could easily approach the size of the USN, at least 3/4 the size.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

the Japanese fleet looks awesome, and the fleet is vast, the ships look rough and tough


it will be a long time before China reaches that kind of inventory, its like thier cars, they are brand new and when they are reconditioned they are sent to UK and by UK standards they are extremely high standard, and for Japan they are old and not good enough for them, Japanese standard is very high, i guess that translates into their naval fleet also

---------- Post added at 03:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:13 PM ----------

kwaigonegin said:

The Daring class is certainly very capable but I wouldn;t necessarily call them a league of it's own. The Aegis SPY1D and later destroyers like the Atago Class, KDX 3 and the Burkes Flight IIA etc are definitely world class AD ships as well.

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not sure about the rest but the Type 45 commander was once interviews and he said its the most advanced surface ship hes ever sailed on

he went on to say that a single Type 45 can search and track sea and airspace for 100s of miles, and can protect itself, a task force and a landmark, i.e. a landing zone for a amphibious assualt and co-ordinate fast fighter jets ALL AT SAME TIME

because of its powerful computers, sensors and programmes it is able to simultanously carry out all required tasks

it was also said that it can engage any known anti-ship missile, Type 45 is a formidable surface vessal

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

CottageLV said:

JMSDF upgrades their ships and submarines very quickly. A new class comes out every few years and new technologies are constantly being added and tested. Unlike USN and Soviet navy, which builds a ship class for 2- 3 decades, Japanese are able to always have the latest and most advanced ships. In time of needs, they can easily mass produce the ships of the latest design.

If you look at Japanese submarine fleet with Chinese standard, they actually have 60-70 advanced subs, around 25 of those in active service. They retire a sub every year. The retired ones are still very new by Western and Eastern standard, they are being constantly serviced and maintained, ready to go into combat very quickly. Even some of their oldest subs are still only as old as some Chinese sub half way into service lifetime.

If wasn't because of American restrictions on their military expansion. The Japanese Imperial navy, aka JMSDF, could easily approach the size of the USN, at least 3/4 the size.

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Cottage, rather than have to build a new class every few years, the US embarked on a different course back in the 1980s, and that was to beuild their vessels with every concievable provision for upgrading them as time went on within only the constraint of hull lief (which lasts a lot longer thaan the technology).

So you get something like the Ticonderoga Class Cruiers which have been upgraded multiple toimes and embark all the latest technology in the same hull. Same is true with the Burke class AEGIS destroyers, which are a sstandard for numerous other nations, including Japan and Korea.

There are over 60 Burkes now and they will be good for many more years simply because they have the space and strength to be upgraded and that is cheaper than building a whole new class.

BTW, the limitation on the JMSDF is not due to the US per sey any longer. it is the Japanese constitution which they would have to change...and can change if they so desire. Up until now, they haven't changed it...though they are getting around it with the Hyuga and the 22DDH by simply calling those vessels destroyers when it is clear that they are much more than that.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

They can say whatever they want to say, obviously they are biased

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

By my own definition for the JMSDF. The FREMM as defined by the Euopeans is a FFG. I personally consider it to be clearly on the order of a DDG. But, in the end, you have to compare the equipment that they have.

The Eurpeans will have FREMMs and Horizons, the PLAN will have Type 054As and Type 052Cs perfomring in those various roles. That's the real comparison when it comes to surface combatants. At least that's how it stacks up now.

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Well the point is that they should not be compared to 054A's at all, since they are destroyers and perform the role of destroyers, no matter what they are called officially.

franco-russe said:

Do they, really? The only abominable thing I can see about the AQUITAINE is the (ridiculously small) 76 mm gun, where there ought to have been a 127 mm. But the pennant number is D650, which really does not denote a frigate…

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When I say abomination I mean that they are too large to be called frigates, not that they are inadequate for their roles.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

antiterror13 said:

They can say whatever they want to say, obviously they are biased

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who?

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Japanese vessels are under armed for their size and rely on US or US derived weapons systems, so nothing indigenously cutting edge there.