052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I think having two 052Cs manned effectively per year will be a struggle for PLAN in the foreseeable future. They have expended naval prep schools extensively in the past few years, and have a fairly mature college ROTC program now, but the fact remains that most people operating the ships are having their first experience with modern naval vessels. Not they have to rotate some experienced sailors and officers from the first two 052Cs, but the rest of the crew better come from other fairly modern ships, Jiangweis at a minimum. There is no room for error so PLAN shouldn't let complete rookies to touch those precious ships.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

hmmwv said:

I think having two 052Cs manned effectively per year will be a struggle for PLAN in the foreseeable future. They have expended naval prep schools extensively in the past few years, and have a fairly mature college ROTC program now, but the fact remains that most people operating the ships are having their first experience with modern naval vessels. Not they have to rotate some experienced sailors and officers from the first two 052Cs, but the rest of the crew better come from other fairly modern ships, Jiangweis at a minimum. There is no room for error so PLAN shouldn't let complete rookies to touch those precious ships.

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The initial crew for their ships gets formed long before the boat hits the water.
plus this is not teh lead ship of a new class.

they have 2 052C in service
since they knew that they will have this flood of new destroyers coming, any dead brains in their planning department could figure they can extra-crewed their existing ships, rotating them through and use ship as training.

It seems that on their 054As they don't have a manning issue. NSF took their newest 054A out to Gulf of Aden months after they received the ship. why do you assume these destroyers would be?

---------- Post added at 12:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 PM ----------

asif iqbal said:

My bad Jeff, i have no idea how the Japanese fleet slipped my mind, which has almost a dozen destroyers, 30+ frigates and 2 very capable helo carriers with 2 bigger ones planned, not to mention in terms of tonnage is larger than the Royal Navy, i think i was thinking about new-builds only

and for sure Type 052C is certainly not advanced as Type 45 Destroyer, which is in a league of its own in terms of air defence

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I don't think t45 is that much better than 052C. sure it is nice.
but 052Cs were doing trials in SCS for 3-4 years after the initial leadships and they worked out alot of their bugs. actually i would rate 052C as a much more mature ssytem then type 45.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

asif iqbal said:

My bad Jeff, i have no idea how the Japanese fleet slipped my mind, which has almost a dozen destroyers, 30+ frigates and 2 very capable helo carriers with 2 bigger ones planned, not to mention in terms of tonnage is larger than the Royal Navy, i think i was thinking about new-builds only

and for sure Type 052C is certainly not advanced as Type 45 Destroyer, which is in a league of its own in terms of air defence

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The JMSDF has a lot of Frigate Class and Destroyer class vessels, though they do not really class/name them that way. I categorize them by weight and armament. Anything above 4,500 tons (light load) I call a DDG , below that a FFG.

Here's how that works out:

JMSDF FFG - Guided Missile Frigates :


Abukuma Class

5 Vessels, #s 229-234 : 2,000 tons (light)


Hatsuyuki Class

10 Vessels, #s 123-132: 2.950 tons (light)


Asugiri Class

7 Vessels, #s 152-158 : 3,500 tons (light)

TOTAL JMSDF FFGs: 22 Vessels

JMSDF DDG - Guided Missile Destroyers :


Murasami Class

9 Vessels, #s 101-109: 4,550 tons (light)


Hatakazi Class

2 Vessels, #s 171-172: 4,600 tons (light)


Takanami Class

5 Vessels, #s 110-114 : 4,650 tons (light)


Kongo Class

4 Vessels, #s 173-176 : 7,250 tons (light)


Atago Class (Aegis)

2 Vessels, #s 177-178: 7,750 tons (light)

Total DDGs : 21 Vessels

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Osumi Class LPD

3 Vessels, #s 4001-4003: 9,000 tons (light)


Hyuga Class CVH

2 Vessels, #s 181-182: 16,000 tons (light)


22DDH Class CVL

2 Vessels, #s 183-184: 22,000 tons (light)

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So, in my way of reckoning, they have 22 Frigates and 21 Destroyers. This of course does not include their two Hyuga carriers, or the two building 22DDH carriers, or their three LPDs which I also show above. I didn't include the two Shirane Class because the two new 22DDH will replace them.

Anyhow, that's a totl of 50 modern frigates, destroyers, LPDs and brand new CVH carriers. That is a very effective naval force and they train constantly.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

asif iqbal said:

My bad Jeff, i have no idea how the Japanese fleet slipped my mind, which has almost a dozen destroyers, 30+ frigates and 2 very capable helo carriers with 2 bigger ones planned, not to mention in terms of tonnage is larger than the Royal Navy, i think i was thinking about new-builds only

and for sure Type 052C is certainly not advanced as Type 45 Destroyer, which is in a league of its own in terms of air defence

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The Daring class is certainly very capable but I wouldn;t necessarily call them a league of it's own. The Aegis SPY1D and later destroyers like the Atago Class, KDX 3 and the Burkes Flight IIA etc are definitely world class AD ships as well.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

kwaigonegin said:

The Daring class is certainly very capable but I wouldn;t necessarily call them a league of it's own. The Aegis SPY1D and later destroyers like the Atago Class, KDX 3 and the Burkes Flight IIA etc are definitely world class AD ships as well.

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Agreed...and the Darings are already perfomring manuevers and joint ops and exercises with the US and those AEGIS vessels.

it would be interesting to know whether a cooperative engagement capability would ever be developed between the two.

Dissimilar systems, but could be done and would be an awesome capability to have a Daring accompanying a US CSG and have the commander be able to fold the Daring's capabilities ibn...or vice versa should a US AEGIS vessel be a part of a future UK battle group.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

I believe the Type 054A is as good an FFG as almost any out there and will remain so until the Erupeans field their new FREMM FFGS and the UKs GCS FFGs, and when and if the US builds a new milti-mission FFG.

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Jeff Head said:

The JMSDF has a lot of Frigate Class and Destroyer class vessels, though they do not really class/name that way. I catewgorize them by weight and armament. Anything above 4,500 tons I call a DDG , below that a FFG.

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By your own definition neither the FREMM nor the GCS qualifies as FFG's, yet you are comparing them to the 054A.....

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I generally agree with Jeff Head’s categorisation of JMSDF’s escorts.

But I would not even classify the ABUKUMA class as frigates – but rather as corvettes (they were built specifically for regional escort divisions).

And the (ridiculously small) 76 mm gun on the MURASAME class really detracts from destroyer status. But as it is basically the same type as the TAKANAMI class with its nice 127 mm gun, it would not make sense to have them in two different categories.

The Japanese make a count a bit difficult by their pro forma declassification of some frigates (and submarines) as training vessel. ASAGIRI class 151 (3516) and 152 (3515) reverted to being ”DD”s in 2012. In return, HATSUYUKI class 123 and 131 became training vessels 3517 and 3518.

So the current count is 8 ASAGIRI (151-158) and 10 HATSUYUKI (123 – 125, 127 - 133, of which 123/3517, 131/3518 and 133/3513 are training vessels). 122 and 126 are decommissioned.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

franco-russe said:

I generally agree with Jeff Head’s categorisation of JMSDF’s escorts.

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As do I, but this is not really the point, which is that those European abominations are not honestly classifiable as "frigates" any more than the Japanese helicopter carrier is honestly classifiable as a "destroyer", and therefore cannot be compared to the 054A class. They are even larger than the Type 052 destroyer class.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Mysterre said:

By your own definition neither the FREMM nor the GCS qualifies as FFG's, yet you are comparing them to the 054A.....

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By my own definition for the JMSDF. The FREMM as defined by the Euopeans is a FFG. I personally consider it to be clearly on the order of a DDG. But, in the end, you have to compare the equipment that they have.

The Eurpeans will have FREMMs and Horizons, the PLAN will have Type 054As and Type 052Cs perfomring in those various roles. That's the real comparison when it comes to surface combatants. At least that's how it stacks up now.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Mysterre said:

As do I, but this is not really the point, which is that those European abominations are not honestly classifiable as "frigates" any more than the Japanese helicopter carrier is honestly classifiable as a "destroyer", and therefore cannot be compared to the 054A class. They are even larger than the Type 052 destroyer class.

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Do they, really? The only abominable thing I can see about the AQUITAINE is the (ridiculously small) 76 mm gun, where there ought to have been a 127 mm. But the pennant number is D650, which really does not denote a frigate…