052/052B Class Destroyers

asif iqbal · May 30, 2012

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

once China has 8 x Type 052C it will surpass the UK with the biggest fleet of modern destroyers

there was no way UK would ever get the original 12 x Type 45s, but had the 7th and 8th not been cancelled it would have been on par with PLAN in terms of new destroyers

Franklin · May 30, 2012

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

asif iqbal said:
once China has 8 x Type 052C it will surpass the UK with the biggest fleet of modern destroyers

there was no way UK would ever get the original 12 x Type 45s, but had the 7th and 8th not been cancelled it would have been on par with PLAN in terms of new destroyers

After the 8 type 052C destroyers are finished China will have 10 air defence destroyers. There are still 2 more type 051C the "Russian AEGIS" with S-300MF missile's.

Jeff Head · May 30, 2012

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

asif iqbal said:
once China has 8 x Type 052C it will surpass the UK with the biggest fleet of modern destroyers

there was no way UK would ever get the original 12 x Type 45s, but had the 7th and 8th not been cancelled it would have been on par with PLAN in terms of new destroyers

Well, we haven't seen the true capabilities of the Type 52C, but I personally believe that the new Type 45s are more effective and have a better missile system and a better engagement system. So yes, the PLAN is building more of these modern destroyers that are much closer to their western counterparts in terms of capabilities, but I still believe somewhat behind them.

The Japanes have 6 AEGIS DDGs, but they have a lot of other DDGs with very effective AAW and ASuW capabilities and they have them in larger numbers than any other nation outside the US. With cooperative engagement capabilities, a couple of AEGIS vessels teamed with six other modern, strong DDGs will be a potent force that all twelve of the current modern PLAN DDGs would have a very tough time with.

Once the new European FREMM FFGs and the UKs GCS FFGs come out and are coupled with Horizon or Type 45 DDGs, you will have a similar situation.

The point in my mind is this. The PLAN is catching up rapidly both in terms of numbers and in terms of technology and they can no longer be considered a "push over" by modern western navies as they were considered when they had a bunch of Luda Class DDGs at sea. Those days are gone.

Once a CSG of two Type52Cs, another one or two of the PLAN's DDGs and 3-4 Type 054As takes to sea with the PLAN Carrier, accompanied by one or more Type 93 SSNs, the Chinese will have as potent a force available to them as any other CSG available, outside the US. I still believe a US carrier with its varied and very effective air wing will remain superior to any other carrier group out there for the forseeable furutre...and its escorts are as good, if not better (because of all of the experience and some leads in technology).

I would not be surprised to see the PLAN build 10-12 52Cs altogether before moving on to the 52D or whatever it will be...but time will reveal that to us in the next year or two.

I believe the Type 054A is as good an FFG as almost any out there and will remain so until the Erupeans field their new FREMM FFGS and the UKs GCS FFGs, and when and if the US builds a new milti-mission FFG.

kwaigonegin · May 30, 2012

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:
Well, we haven't seen the true capabilities of the Type 52C, but I personally believe that the new Type 45s are more effective and have a better missile system and a better engagement system. So yes, the PLAN is building more of these modern destroyers that are much closer to their western counterparts in terms of capabilities, but I still believe somewhat behind them.

The Japanes have 6 AEGIS DDGs, but they have a lot of other DDGs with very effective AAW and ASuW capabilities and they have them in larger numbers than any other nation outside the US. With cooperative engagement capabilities, a couple of AEGIS vessels teamed with six other modern, strong DDGs will be a potent force that all twelve of the current modern PLAN DDGs would have a very tough time with.

Once the new European FREMM FFGs and the UKs GCS FFGs come out and are coupled with Horizon or Type 45 DDGs, you will have a similar situation.

The point in my mind is this. The PLAN is catching up rapidly both in terms of numbers and in terms of technology and they can no longer be considered a "push over" by modern western navies as they were considered when they had a bunch of Luda Class DDGs at sea. Those days are gone.

Once a CSG of two Type52Cs, another one or two of the PLAN's DDGs and 3-4 Type 054As takes to sea with the PLAN Carrier, accompanied by one or more Type 93 SSNs, the Chinese will have as potent a force available to them as any other CSG available, outside the US. I still believe a US carrier with its varied and very effective air wing will remain superior to any other carrier group out there for the forseeable furutre...and its escorts are as good, if not better (because of all of the experience and some leads in technology).

I would not be surprised to see the PLAN build 10-12 52Cs altogether before moving on to the 52D or whatever it will be...but time will reveal that to us in the next year or two.

I believe the Type 054A is as good an FFG as almost any out there and will remain so until the Erupeans field their new FREMM FFGS and the UKs GCS FFGs, and when and if the US builds a new milti-mission FFG.

I agree. The Type 45s is slightly more advance and capable ships than the 054As. Definitely so in Air Defence. I think the SAMPSON/S1850M combo is superior to the Type 346/348 as well.

---------- Post added at 10:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 AM ----------

Jeff Head said:
Well, we haven't seen the true capabilities of the Type 52C, but I personally believe that the new Type 45s are more effective and have a better missile system and a better engagement system. So yes, the PLAN is building more of these modern destroyers that are much closer to their western counterparts in terms of capabilities, but I still believe somewhat behind them.

The Japanes have 6 AEGIS DDGs, but they have a lot of other DDGs with very effective AAW and ASuW capabilities and they have them in larger numbers than any other nation outside the US. With cooperative engagement capabilities, a couple of AEGIS vessels teamed with six other modern, strong DDGs will be a potent force that all twelve of the current modern PLAN DDGs would have a very tough time with.

Once the new European FREMM FFGs and the UKs GCS FFGs come out and are coupled with Horizon or Type 45 DDGs, you will have a similar situation.

The point in my mind is this. The PLAN is catching up rapidly both in terms of numbers and in terms of technology and they can no longer be considered a "push over" by modern western navies as they were considered when they had a bunch of Luda Class DDGs at sea. Those days are gone.

Once a CSG of two Type52Cs, another one or two of the PLAN's DDGs and 3-4 Type 054As takes to sea with the PLAN Carrier, accompanied by one or more Type 93 SSNs, the Chinese will have as potent a force available to them as any other CSG available, outside the US. I still believe a US carrier with its varied and very effective air wing will remain superior to any other carrier group out there for the forseeable furutre...and its escorts are as good, if not better (because of all of the experience and some leads in technology).

I would not be surprised to see the PLAN build 10-12 52Cs altogether before moving on to the 52D or whatever it will be...but time will reveal that to us in the next year or two.

I believe the Type 054A is as good an FFG as almost any out there and will remain so until the Erupeans field their new FREMM FFGS and the UKs GCS FFGs, and when and if the US builds a new milti-mission FFG.

I agree. The Type 45s is slightly more advance and capable ships than the 052Cs. Definitely so in Air Defence. I think the SAMPSON/S1850M combo is superior to the Type 346/348 as well. Maybe when the 052Ds come out they will be in parity.

mig31 · May 30, 2012

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

This is clearly the 7th Hull not the 6th. The 8th Hull is in the hanger. The 7th even pooks different then the other 52cs.

CottageLV · May 30, 2012

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

This rate is quite astounding, does China even have that many experienced sailors? I'm guessing they're probably taking experienced officers from current ships and mix them with new graduates from naval schools. It is hard to train so many highly educated officers so quickly, even for the might USN. At this rate, which is about 5 highly sophisticated ships per year, each about 200 personnel. That's about 1000 per year. You need quite a few schools to mass produce them.

---------- Post added at 11:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 AM ----------

Switching officers from retired ships to those new ones is not so easy. The systems are completely different and the new knowledge is immense. You have to go school at least a year or two of schooling before you're able to qualify for the new ships.

joshuatree · May 30, 2012

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

CottageLV said:
This rate is quite astounding, does China even have that many experienced sailors? I'm guessing they're probably taking experienced officers from current ships and mix them with new graduates from naval schools. It is hard to train so many highly educated officers so quickly, even for the might USN. At this rate, which is about 5 highly sophisticated ships per year, each about 200 personnel. That's about 1000 per year. You need quite a few schools to mass produce them.

---------- Post added at 11:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 AM ----------

Switching officers from retired ships to those new ones is not so easy. The systems are completely different and the new knowledge is immense. You have to go school at least a year or two of schooling before you're able to qualify for the new ships.

Probably should deploy a 4th ship to each anti-piracy flotilla deployment, the 4th ship consisting of lesser experienced crews where they can gain first hand experience quickly and rather safely.

MwRYum · May 30, 2012

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

CottageLV said:
This rate is quite astounding, does China even have that many experienced sailors? I'm guessing they're probably taking experienced officers from current ships and mix them with new graduates from naval schools. It is hard to train so many highly educated officers so quickly, even for the might USN. At this rate, which is about 5 highly sophisticated ships per year, each about 200 personnel. That's about 1000 per year. You need quite a few schools to mass produce them.

---------- Post added at 11:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 AM ----------

Switching officers from retired ships to those new ones is not so easy. The systems are completely different and the new knowledge is immense. You have to go school at least a year or two of schooling before you're able to qualify for the new ships.

Increased level of automation should help, though PLAN don't openly tell the crew compliment of their current 1st line surface combatants - classified, they said. Yes, that's what I heard they said during the open house. So we could only guess mostly...if the PLAN meet the recruitment quotas then they should have enough officers and men for them.

Also, the intensity of the Somalia anti-piracy expedition gives them golden opportunity to polish officers and NCOs for the new ships as well. I agreed sailors would be different matter because their service period are short (conscription period, that is), but NCOs and officers are groomed as specialists and that means career soldiers.

Jeff Head · May 31, 2012

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

MwRYum said:
So we could only guess mostly...if the PLAN meet the recruitment quotas then they should have enough officers and men for them.

My guess is that the PLAN prepared for this from the start.

During the time between the first two builds of the Type 054 and the serial production of the 054As, and the first two 052C and serial production of the newer ones, they probably defined the schooling needs and started them. Then as the serial production came along, they were already pumping out the new graduates for the ships, and rotating officers and NCOs from the first two onto the new vessels to supplement training and vice versa.

If they planned well for it, they would now be in a position to keep up.

BTW, here's the bow on shot of my latest 1/350 scale model build of the Haikou, DDG-171.

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asif iqbal · May 31, 2012

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

My bad Jeff, i have no idea how the Japanese fleet slipped my mind, which has almost a dozen destroyers, 30+ frigates and 2 very capable helo carriers with 2 bigger ones planned, not to mention in terms of tonnage is larger than the Royal Navy, i think i was thinking about new-builds only

and for sure Type 052C is certainly not advanced as Type 45 Destroyer, which is in a league of its own in terms of air defence

052/052B Class Destroyers

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General

Franklin

Captain

Jeff Head

General

kwaigonegin

Colonel

mig31

Banned Idiot

CottageLV

Banned Idiot

joshuatree

Captain

MwRYum

Major

Jeff Head

General

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General