00X/004 future nuclear CATOBAR carrier thread

Blitzo

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People really need to readjust their expectations of what China is capable of at this point. This is not astonishing, this is typical.

It is astonishing, if true, but the triumphalism you are conveying is presumptive.

There are essentially two ways of interpreting the information about the fourth carrier being nuclear:
1. The fourth carrier will start construction in the next few years, causing us great astonishment that their nuclear propulsion technology is so sufficiently advanced that they are able to start construction by 2025ish.
2. The fourth carrier will not start construction until well after 2025 (such as late 2020s), causing us great astonishment that the PLAN is willing to wait that long until they have a fourth carrier in the pipeline (i.e.: with 003 launching this year, it could thus end up being 8-9 years between the launching of the fourth carrier).


Both of these range of projections are equally "astonishing" but only one of them are positive in the way you are interpreting it.
 
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ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
It is astonishing, if true, but the triumphalism you are conveying is not presumed.

There are essentially two ways of interpreting the information about the fourth carrier being nuclear:
1. The fourth carrier will start construction in the next few years, causing us great astonishment that their nuclear propulsion technology is so sufficiently advanced that they are able to start construction by 2025ish
2. The fourth carrier will not start construction until well after 2025 (such as late 2020s), causing us great astonishment that the PLAN is willing to wait that long until they have a fourth carrier in the pipeline (i.e.: with 003 launching this year, it could thus end up being 8-9 years between the launching of the fourth carrier).


Both of these range of projections are equally "astonishing" but only one of them are positive in the way you are interpreting it.
I seriously doubt the second interpretation is realistic. The PLA and the Chinese government in general are well aware of China's deteriorating security environment and the range of threats it faces. It would indeed by astonishing (and horrifying) if Chinese decisionmakers were so monstrously negligent as to ignore these threats, but I just can't see that being the case. I discount scenario 2 completely.

As for scenario 1, China didn't establish a naval nuclear propulsion industry last week. It's had one for decades and has been researching nuclear propulsion for aircraft carriers for a very long time. I've always felt that people put these completely silly and arbitrary "requirements" on China's nuclear propulsion research, like the thing with installing a nuclear reactor on an icebreaker. What other country did that? Did the US do anything like that? If not, why should China be expected to?

The reason for this bias and consistent underestimation of China (even among its supporters) is, of course, obvious: China was lagging behind technologically until very recently. Note the tense, however - was. In all but a sliver of fields, China is at the very least competitive. It should come as no surprise that that sliver is shrinking day by day.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
It is astonishing, if true, but the triumphalism you are conveying is not presumed.

There are essentially two ways of interpreting the information about the fourth carrier being nuclear:
1. The fourth carrier will start construction in the next few years, causing us great astonishment that their nuclear propulsion technology is so sufficiently advanced that they are able to start construction by 2025ish
2. The fourth carrier will not start construction until well after 2025 (such as late 2020s), causing us great astonishment that the PLAN is willing to wait that long until they have a fourth carrier in the pipeline (i.e.: with 003 launching this year, it could thus end up being 8-9 years between the launching of the fourth carrier).


Both of these range of projections are equally "astonishing" but only one of them are positive in the way you are interpreting it.
Given the increasingly worsening international environment, i seriously doubt that the PLAN would be willing to wait so many years without making another carrier (even if it is "just" conventional).
My personal bet is for what will happen is your 1st point.
 

Blitzo

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I seriously doubt the second interpretation is realistic. The PLA and the Chinese government in general are well aware of China's deteriorating security environment and the range of threats it faces. It would indeed by astonishing (and horrifying) if Chinese decisionmakers were so monstrously negligent as to ignore these threats, but I just can't see that being the case. I discount scenario 2 completely.

As for scenario 1, China didn't establish a naval nuclear propulsion industry last week. It's had one for decades and has been researching nuclear propulsion for aircraft carriers for a very long time. I've always felt that people put these completely silly and arbitrary "requirements" on China's nuclear propulsion research, like the thing with installing a nuclear reactor on an icebreaker. What other country did that? Did the US do anything like that? If not, why should China be expected to?

The reason for this bias and consistent underestimation of China (even among its supporters) is, of course, obvious: China was lagging behind technologically until very recently. Note the tense, however - was. In all but a sliver of fields, China is at the very least competitive. It should come as no surprise that that sliver is shrinking day by day.

Some projects have been pleasant surprises, some projects have been disappointments. All of those pleasant surprises and disappointments however have been tracked with occasional updates of rumours and/or information on how a given project is progressing.

In the case of this rumour that the fourth carrier will be nuclear, we do not have any basis of information to project when it could emerge and pop3 has not given us any indication of it either.

There are persuasive arguments in either direction.
For scenario 1: if the CVN does start construction in the next few years, it could be a reflection that Chinese nuclear propulsion technology is sufficiently advanced and mature for their fourth carrier to use it, and could enter service before the late 2020s.
For scenario 2: perhaps not only is Chinese nuclear propulsion technology less advanced than we believe, but perhaps the strategic environment of the mid to late 2020s is assessed as being so severe, and that pursuing a fourth 003 pattern carrier would not be the best decision to hedge against conflict (i.e.: that more mature and more distributed assets may be more valuable for that time period, versus an additional 003 carrier, as a fleet of four carriers of CV-16, CV-17 and two 003 CVs would be deemed an insufficiently capable force to deal with threats of that time period).

Without a clear indication from pop3 or others, we simply don't have a concrete foundation to make informed speculation in either direction.


That means at this stage, we should remain cautious, and to not write cheques that we may be unable to cash.



So yes -- the idea of the fourth carrier being a CVN is absolutely indeed astonishing.
But we do not yet know what reason it is astonishing, and we should not be presumptive and superlative in our predictions without sufficient basis for it.

The idea of China starting construction of a CVN in the next few years is not beyond the realm of possibility -- but it would be surprising, and we need rumours to seriously entertain it, given how soon that will be creeping on us.
Similarly, the idea of China not building a fourth carrier until the late 2020s (when the CVN could otherwise conceivably start construction) is not beyond the realm of possibility either -- but to confirm it we would either need rumours or to wait until we've reached 2025 at which point scenario 1 can either be confirmed or ruled out.
 

Blitzo

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My bet is that two 003-class carriers will be built before the CVN would be launched. There are rumors that Dalian Shipyard is already beginning construction of another carrier which, if true, will almost definitely be a conventional vessel like the 003.

This entire discussion over the last few pages is spawned from pop3's statement that China's fourth carrier will be nuclear.

Personally, I think building a second 003 carrier makes sense before moving onto the CVN, but we also cannot simply ignore a black and white statement from pop3 like this.

It means we are thrown back into the unknown and have to both assess pop3's reliability (again), as well as consider the various ways in which pop3's statement could be interpreted and the rationale behind them.



However pop3's statement is interpreted however, it cannot co-exist with the idea of a second 003 carrier being built, period.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
This entire discussion over the last few pages is spawned from pop3's statement that China's fourth carrier will be nuclear.

Personally, I think building a second 003 carrier makes sense before moving onto the CVN, but we also cannot simply ignore a black and white statement from pop3 like this.

It means we are thrown back into the unknown and have to both assess pop3's reliability (again), as well as consider the various ways in which pop3's statement could be interpreted and the rationale behind them.



However pop3's statement is interpreted however, it cannot co-exist with the idea of a second 003 carrier being built, period.

POP3's statement is not black and white, and his track record not unblemished either. The forum reads too much into the statements that these "insiders" put out rather than treating them like guides as they should.

And even if we take POP3's words "四号舰”, this could refer to the fourth carrier overall or the fourth Chinese-built carrier or "carrier #4". We don't have further context.

So I think it's a bit premature to say anything until we have more concrete evidence.
 
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