Intrepid
Major
But that is the Chinese way: take something existing, use it - and improve it.
PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)
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vesicles
Colonel
I don't think I am being defensive at all, just stating facts. China has not built a CV from scratch, ever. So it would be a good practice for them to demonstrate that they know the basics. Just like learning anything, you have to start with the most fundamental stuff. Understanding the blueprint is not enough. Many things can only be understood and digested fully when you actually do it yourself. And they are learning how to build a CV by actually doing it themselves, for the first time. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, this is how you should go about doing anything.
Writing in capital letters and stuff is pretty defensive in my eyes. I'm not a retarded child, you can talk to me in a normal way and would get your points just fine without any problems.
And the
In fact they even have the Liaoning for years, so they should have a lot of experience now which elements of the and which aren't and combine them with the successful Chinese design philosophy.
And the
In fact they even have the Liaoning for years, so they should have a lot of experience now which elements of the and which aren't and combine them with the successful Chinese design philosophy.
Nothing. Nothing at all. Operations and tactics may have changed but flight deck procedure is constant. flight deck carrier operations have not changed much in the last 50+ years. To prove this point check these videos..
CVN-74 2014
CVA-62 1965
vesicles
Colonel
Writing in capital letters and stuff is simply a way to emphasize my point. Nothing less and nothing more. Especially when I am writing a long post, many times messages get buried in long sentences. Capital letters pop and help emphasizing my main points. Apparently, that worked since you saw it...
I don't think you are getting my points. My point is seeing, learning, reading, checking about it is not enough. The Liaoning can sit there for the next 100 years while the engineers can spend all their lives memorizing everything on/in it, it is still not the same as actually doing / building it yourselves. To truly know something, you have to actually do it. No other way.
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And that's >>>> Language Remove <<<< .
Basically building another Liaoning would only make sense if we talking about a nation with no proven shipbuilding skills, which just can't do it better.
But its not insane to claim that Chinese engineers are capable of doing it better and fixing many of the glaring flaws of the Admiral Kusnezow class which are a combination of lack of technical skills of the Sviets and different carrier doctrines between the Soviets and Chinese Navy.
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And it makes sence for them.
for their needs and level of experience, a STOBAR carrier like this is an excellent choice. They are not to a point where they need a carrier of the soize of a Nimitz. They do not need that sortie rate. They do mnot need that many aircraft. They do not need that level of advancement all at once.
so, they chose to refit the Varyag into the Liaoning and they developed a much impoorved J-15 aircraft to operate off of it.
with 24 J-15s they have a capability that is sufficient for their needs, and allows them to train and become familiar with carrier operations and develop the kind of traditions necessary to sustain that type of force for the long term.
Adding another carrier that is very similar in nature (albeit with some clear improvements) will mean that their training, spare parts, and logistical support will be optimized for the life of those carriers.
And contrary to what some may think, this reinforces the thought that I have always maintained that the Liaoning will be a fully fuinctional and capable aircraft carrier. Used for training? Yes, of course. But capable of full operations and combat missions if they ever need her for it..
Pleasse...you are not making sense here.Pmichael said:
The Nimitz class is, right now, recognized as the apex of carrier design and is the most capanble vessel out there.
The USS Nimitz was laid down in 1968! It was designed in the 1960s.
It was launched in 1972 and commissioned in 1975. The class as a whole has been improved over the years. It took 34 years to commission all ten of them. but the vast majority of the design is a product of the 1960s. And it is still the best in the world.
The Kuznetsov and Varyag were actually designed almost 20 years later!
It is true that the US has a new carrier coming out now...but it will take another 40 years for that new class to treplace the Nimitz calss...and the Nimitz class will still be doing very well at the end of that time. The Ford has some very critical and need enhancements...but it is also true that the vast majority of its basic design is very similar to the Nimitz.
The ford has newer, much more efficient and powerful reactors. It has a new catapult system, EMALS, and electro-magnetic arrestor system. It has a redesigned island...but which is based on the experiences and the enhancements that were first made on the USS George Bush Nimitz carrier. It is using three elevators instead of four. Outside of those enhancements, a lot of the basic design is very much like the Nimitz.
And why? Because the US has learned after over 100 years of carrier operation, that that hull form is about as optimized as we can make it
So the fact that the Liaoning design is from the 1980s does not at all mean that it is a dead-weight or anachronistic at all.
What the Chinese are doing is smart. They are very carefully and very systematically building up a critical capability that they never had before, and they are doing it in such a way that allows them the best chance of success and the least chance for huge waist I applaud the way they are going about it.
I expect that they will have the Liaoning and at least another one like it 001. 001 should come into service in 2020 or so.
I believe 002 and 003 will be more like the Forrestal class. That is 80,000 ton (or thereabouts) conventionally powered CATOBAR designs. 002 should come into service in the mid 2020s and 003 in 2030 or so.
Then, after that, I expect they will perhaps build a nuclear carrier...in the 2035 time frame.
When they get there though, they will have over 20 years of carrier naval aviation experience, and will be able to make the most use of their new designs.
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Didn't read much respect for my points in your posts, so yes, that is what you get from me.
And claiming that engineering expertise can only gained through copying is not an efficient way. USA and Soviets realized it after WW2 after their attempts of reverse engineering of several German toys.
And claiming that engineering expertise can only gained through copying is not an efficient way. USA and Soviets realized it after WW2 after their attempts of reverse engineering of several German toys.
PMichael, good healthy debate is welcomed and appreciated.
However, we do have rules and they reflect the fact that we expect SD Forum to operate in a professional manner.
My advise would be:
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Vesicles has been on the forum for over six years. He has posted thousands of times. This alone does not make him any better than anyone else...except that here on SD, people who step out of bounds or who are not able to back up their arguments with good data and reasoned discourse do not last very long.
You have been here about 18 months and have less than a hundred posts. Again, that in itself does not mean that your opinions or arguments are invalid...and we certainly appreciate your point of view.
But do try and show respect, and be aware of the nuances of the forum and those posting here.
FYI, because he would not say so himself, vesicles is a very well respected research scientist who uses his wealth of knowledge and the qualities that have made him successful in his fields to address questions, and to guide him in researching things here. He is a military enthusiast like many of us and knowing this about him should help temper what might otherwise be misconceptions or misunderstandings.
We want everyone to have a great experience on SD and benefit from the vast wealth of knowledge and experience we have here. We also want everyone, including newer members to contribute.
Once you get to know some of the folks here a little better, that will become easier.
Hope this helps. Sorry for the length, but that in itself should tell you that we care enough to spend the time with you.
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However, we do have rules and they reflect the fact that we expect SD Forum to operate in a professional manner.
My advise would be:
1. Read and abide the rules.
2. Be respectful of other posters, particularly those who have been here for many years.
3. Stay reasoned in your discourse.
Vesicles has been on the forum for over six years. He has posted thousands of times. This alone does not make him any better than anyone else...except that here on SD, people who step out of bounds or who are not able to back up their arguments with good data and reasoned discourse do not last very long.
You have been here about 18 months and have less than a hundred posts. Again, that in itself does not mean that your opinions or arguments are invalid...and we certainly appreciate your point of view.
But do try and show respect, and be aware of the nuances of the forum and those posting here.
FYI, because he would not say so himself, vesicles is a very well respected research scientist who uses his wealth of knowledge and the qualities that have made him successful in his fields to address questions, and to guide him in researching things here. He is a military enthusiast like many of us and knowing this about him should help temper what might otherwise be misconceptions or misunderstandings.
We want everyone to have a great experience on SD and benefit from the vast wealth of knowledge and experience we have here. We also want everyone, including newer members to contribute.
Once you get to know some of the folks here a little better, that will become easier.
Hope this helps. Sorry for the length, but that in itself should tell you that we care enough to spend the time with you.
DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MODERATION.
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