antiterror13
Brigadier
nobody is so defensive, just have different opinions ... and you have to respect that! ... thats what make this forum the best !!
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PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)
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nobody is so defensive, just have different opinions ... and you have to respect that! ... thats what make this forum the best !!
Sure, stating things as facts is sure a way of exchange opinions.
Makes one wonder how every aircraft nation except China was capable of designing own aircraft carriers without building without reverse engineering a 30 years old design. If China really copies the Liaoning without significant own input then I have all right to say that China's first domestic built carrier is a subpar carrier - even if all capital letters and arguments of authority on this world say something else.
Not sure about that.
In the photo I posted on page 405 of the CVF module, it shows the walls of the hangar up and the opening in the hangar wall for an elevator, all without the supporting structure for the elevator present. Of course, CVF was built in a somewhat unique way in very large complete modules shipped together, but it still lacked supporting structures for its elevators until well after the hangar deck level and the hangar walls were begun to be erected, at the minimum.
Or putting it another way, there were no visible signs of elevator support structures, on the outside of the CVF hull, during its construction, before the construction reached the hangar deck level and before the hangar walls had been erected. So it does not have to be the case that carrier construction must always have visible elevator support structures prior to building the hangar deck level, and it follows that we may not see elevator support structures on DL's suspected carrier either.
In fact these subsequent pictures depict just how the elevator and flight deck of the CVF were eventually attached:
The way I see it, CVF was eventually built up to the flight deck level only up to the width of their waterline beam; AKA it was essentially only the "hull" built up to flight deck level.
From there, they added on various sponsons which were superiorly continuous with the flight deck level, to create the overhang of the flight deck, creating the true flight deck shape and area. I think this is depicted very well in the pictures below.
In this step, they also added support structures for the elevator on the outside of the hull similar to sponsons, which can be seen quite well in the picture below. We can see the smooth contour of the hull module, with the "sponson modules" attached to the side of the hull.
I think all this is sufficient evidence to show that it is not compulsory for carrier construction to have visible elevator support structures on the hull before construction reaches the level of the hangar or the hangar walls.
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001A is expected to be very similar to 001 Liaoning but it will not be identical, we know that there will be improvements and their own input. Don't think that they're copying every nut and screw.
China is still new to the carrier game, but more importantly, the navy is conservative at the moment as well. They may consider the risk of developing a brand new design as their first fully indigenously constructed carrier to be too great with little benefit.
And remember that 001A will be at least the size of Liaoning, meaning they are building a very large carrier as their first indigenously constructed CV as well. Not many nations would be that ambitious.
Going for design derived from an existing carrier may turn out just to be the most practical and lowest risk choice while also providing the most capability for that low level of risk.
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Oh, the structure is in there, Bltizo. Since the QE is built in modules, we did not see it before it was shipped into the main yard to be attached to the other modules.Not sure about that.
In fact these subsequent pictures depict just how the elevator and flight deck of the CVF were eventually attached:
The way I see it, CVF was eventually built up to the flight deck level only up to the width of their waterline beam; AKA it was essentially only the "hull" built up to flight deck level.
From there, they added on various sponsons which were superiorly continuous with the flight deck level, to create the overhang of the flight deck, creating the true flight deck shape and area. I think this is depicted very well in the pictures below.
The sponsons are not the support. The support is structural and not just hung on the side of the vessel. There are mechanisms for the elevator that later is hung on the vessel...ie: the tracks, the opening, etc. But that is not what I am talking about.
I will admit that as the large module is towed to the main yard you do not see it...it is already built in and covered over. But the structural support for the elevators is there.
From what we have seen to date, the vessel in the yard at Dalian is being built there from the keel up there and not having basically complete modules towed in to be attached to the rest.
My point is that while it is being built in that fashion, if you know what to look for, you will see that support structure going in, and to date, we have not seen that.
I think all this is sufficient evidence to show that it is not compulsory for carrier construction to have visible elevator support structures on the hull before construction reaches the level of the hangar or the hangar walls.[/QUOTE]
You know what would end most of this speculation as to whether these ships are CVs or not? IF the PLAN held a press conference and announced to the World...."Ladies & Gentlemen we are building two aircraft carriers. One in Shanghai and another in Dalian"....fat chance of that happening.
Oh I'm leaning towards the ship in Dalian is an CV...just a gut feeling that's all.
Oh I'm leaning towards the ship in Dalian is an CV...just a gut feeling that's all.
Okay, in that case we are talking about "internal" structural support for the elevators, in which case in my last post I did say:
So now, we should be asking ourselves, would we be able to see the internal elevator support structures of DL's supposed carrier during its construction, or rather, should it be reasonable to use identification of the internal elevator support structure as any kind of meaningful indicator of the ship's status?
Let's consider it:
-most of our photos are from the port side of the ship, and that the elevators are on the starboard side, meaning we have very few photos of the side of the ship which is supposed to have these internal elevator support structures to begin with
-all of our photos of the ship (including the few starboard side pictures) are very blurred, making it difficult to distinguish details within the ship's hull. The best we can do is visualize very general outlines, and I don't think the pictures are detailed enough or the construction clear enough for us to visualize the internal support structure
-the kicker, is that none of us actually know what the internal structural support for aircraft carrier elevators look like. If you know what exactly the internal structural support for elevators should look like then I'd be very interested to know
So I'd argue that there is a very good case for us to say that the internal structural support for elevators is not a very useful indicator WRT the ship's status for whether it is a carrier or not.
I'd say the most useful indicator will be when/if the hangar deck is built and when we see the hangar walls get erected; by that stage there will be no question that the ship is a carrier (technically could be an LHA, but that's merely academic) as no other ship type would have such a configuration. Most importantly, hangar walls and a hangar deck are very obvious, distinct shapes that can be seen even in blurred pictures taken at a distance like what we are usually getting.
JayBird
Junior Member
The gossip was that PLAN doesn't want another modify and slightly enlarged version of Liaoning at first. It was the top leaders who decided to go for 001A because of the American pivot to Asia and the overall political environment around the world that added the urgency to have another carrier ASAP.
Back then PLAN wanted to wait for catapult system or EMALS and bigger tonnage carrier. 002 is actually what PLAN wanted as their second carrier. But 002 construction won't start until next Spring, 001A started in 2013. So.. the decision was make even eariler when catapult system was not ready.
antiterror13
Brigadier
you just say the same things again and again.
The only similarity of Liaoning and her sister Kuznetsov is just the empty hull, everything else just different (aka much improved). China bought empty hull basically. Like you build a Toyota car from empty chassis , but everything else are different
I'd expect the hull for 001A would be 70-80% the same as Liaoning, but everything else (which are extremely important) would be much improved than Liaoning
Yes you did, and I also said in my answer:
"My point is that while it is being built in that fashion, if you know what to look for, you will see that support structure going in, and to date, we have not seen that."
Only foi you cannot see it...or do not know what to look for.
As it is, since we both agree that the original premise that the construction from the keel up has not reached the hanger bay as the original poster indicated...at this point it is moot in any case.
Nicht Wahr?
Time will tell. I expect we will be able to tell one way por another within the nex 12 months for that particular vessel..[/QUOTE]
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