J-10 Thread IV

[latenlazy]

Diagram of one (of many) early Chinese design.
View attachment 46089
Early test item which looks identical to what we see on the J-10 except the saw tooth.
View attachment 46090

Compare to Idz 30
View attachment 46091

I have marked the differences of the Chinese and Russian implementation. The differences are big because they affect the shape of the contraction and expansion sections of the nuzzle, therefor flame-flow, therefor performance efficiency. They also affect the force applied on the paddles and needed from the actuators.

My conclusion based on this is that, there is not much meaningful relationship between the two designs except they are all AVENs just like the American and European ones. If there is any relationship, it is as much/less as the relationship between the US design and Russian design. Actually, it would be safer to say American, Russian and European designs are closer to one another, while the Chinese design is further away from them.

Btw pretty sure that’s not the Idz 30, but a different nozzle. The Idz 30 is manufactured by Saturn, and the engine in the pic is supposedly a Salut design. It might have been Salut’s submission for the PAKFA engine that got rejected.

 

[taxiya]

Btw pretty sure that’s not the Idz 30, but a different nozzle. The Idz 30 is manufactured by Saturn, and the engine in the pic is supposedly a Salut design. It might have been Salut’s submission for the PAKFA engine that got rejected.

I am not sure what you mean.
My photo

izdeliye 30 from this report

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Индийская компания Tejas-India's MRCA на своей странице в "Фейсбуке" опубликовала возможные фотографии двигателя для самолёта, известного как "Изделие-30". Он предназначен для второго этапа российских самолётов пятого поколения Су-57.

Edit: if you mean by that the engine in this report is not Idz 30, then means that we don't have any clear photo of Idz 30 so far? And the one mounted on the Su-57 (in a video snapshot, one new nuzzle, one old) is Idz 30?
Anyways, the one on the Su-57 and this one in the report are the same in design of paddles. So I hope it is good enough for me to use them interchangeably to demonstrate the difference.

 

[latenlazy]

I am not sure what you mean.
My photo

izdeliye 30 from this report

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I suspect that report jumped the gun and got it wrong.

This is the Izd 30’s nozzle.

It doesn’t have the two section nozzle flap design that the engine you shared has, and if you look at the flap control components they don’t look identical to the image you shared either.

The one on the plane, for comparison.

 

[taxiya]

I suspect that report jumped the gun and got it wrong.

This is the Izd 30’s nozzle.

It doesn’t have the two section nozzle flap design that the engine you shared has, and if you look at the flap control components they don’t look identical to the image you shared either.

The one on the plane, for comparison.

I think they are the same engine. The one in the photo is without the outer cover paddles, while the one with the red mark in your first photo is with the cover paddles.

Edit:

 

[latenlazy]

I think they are the same engine. The one in the photo is without the outer cover paddles, while the one with the red mark in your first photo is with the cover paddles.

You can try to match up the nozzle elements behind the petal covering for yourself, but they don’t look similar to me. There seems to be elements in each that I can’t find or match in the other.

 

[taxiya]

You can try to match up the nozzle elements behind the petal covering for yourself, but they don’t look similar to me. There seems to be elements in each that I can’t find in the other.

Ok I admit, I can not find the A9 ring on the photo of yours.

 

[Jura The idiot]

J-10C TVC-testbed - magazine cover

View attachment 46035

how you doing Deino? DefenseNews quotes you:
China may be making its fighters more stealthy

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A photo has emerged of China’s J-10 fighter fitted with what is believed to be a thrust vectoring nozzle with stealthy features.

The photo, published by an unknown Chinese-language defense magazine, shows a Chengdu J-10C fighter flying with a modified exhaust nozzle for its indigenous Shenyang-Liming WS-10 Taihang turbofan engine.

The modifications to the aircraft, which is one of a small number of J-10s being used by the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation as flying testbeds, include sawtooth edges on the exhaust nozzles similar to that used by other low-observable aircraft to improve their rear aspect stealth characteristics.

The aircraft also has part of the bottom of its brake parachute housing, located on the base of its vertical fin, removed. This would allow its thrust vectoring nozzle to be rotated upwards and would allow thrust vectoring to be applied on both the vertical and horizontal planes.

Thrust vectoring, also known as thrust vector control or TVC, is the ability of an aircraft to manipulate the direction of the thrust from its engines in order to control the attitude or angular velocity of the vehicle, improving the maneuverability of the aircraft compared to solely using its control surfaces. TVC for improved maneuverability is already used on the Lockheed-Martin F-22 Raptor and Russia’s Sukhoi Su-30/35 Flanker family.

There have long been suggestions that China was conducting research and development into TVC technology for its combat aircraft, with claims that the J-10C test bed flew for the first time with thrust vectoring in late 2017 although Defense News has been unable to independently verify this.

Despite this apparent breakthrough, Andreas Rupprecht, who has written a several books on Chinese military aviation, cautions against expecting Chinese aircraft to feature TVC any time soon. Speaking to Defense News, he believes that the TVC project is being used to explore such technologies for the WS-15 engine, which is currently being developed for the stealthy Chengdu J-20 fighter.

The single-engine J-10C is the current version of J-10 being operated by China’s People’s Liberation Army Air Force or PLAAF. In-service J-10Cs feature a number of improvements over earlier versions, which include a Diverterless Supersonic Inlet, improved electronic warfare capabilities and reportedly an active electronically scanned array radar although they are still powered by the Russian Saturn AL-31 engine.

The J-20, which has recently been declared operational by the PLAAF, is likewise powered by AL-31s, with China’s ability to manufacture high-performance military aircraft engines still maturing despite the WS-10 being used for a number of years on land-based indigenous derivatives of Russia’s twin-engined Flanker combat jets.

LOL what was that "unknown Chinese-language defense magazine"?

 

[jobjed]

LOL what was that "unknown Chinese-language defense magazine"?

航空知识 2018 5th Issue

 

[Jura The idiot]

航空知识 2018 5th Issue

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[Hyperwarp]

@Hyperwarp too
What do you two mean by "different design"? Isn't WS-10's TVC AVEN? So is Idz. 30? And Euro fighter's proposed one and Mig-35?

AVEN is the type that reshape the exhaust paddles to control the direction without moving the base? The only other different design is what is on early Su-57 and other Sukhoi's where the base of the nuzzle rotate to control direction?

Buy different I mean China ground tested a system similar to the AVEN in NF-16 VISTA. Notice the difference in the petals compared to the Salut and the new WS-10 TVC system. The petals are not split. Former president Jiang Zemin got a chance to play with it when he was president. The nozzle was responding to the joystick movements he was making. There are supposed to be videos of this nozzle but us outsiders can't find it. This nozzle was indeed done by Shenyang. So they clearly had the tech but the new nozzle is a departure from that.