Ladakh Flash Point

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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Bloomberg also reported that India captured a Chinese camp. Plenty of different media are saying different things. I thought Western and Indian sources are biased against China? I am basing my views from satellite images, which are some of the only neutral evidence we currently have.
Yeah, they are biased against China, which is why it's more believable when they admit things in China's favor. When they make claims against China, they get disproven later. I don't remember about the FP article but the Bloomberg paper also uses satellite images. Just like when Indians claim that a Chinese Su-35 was "shot down" in Taiwan because of a picture, there is no verification on the source, date, labelling of camps/personnel/equipment of the satellite, etc... on the images that you use. It's essentially a picture that anybody can claim to be any date, draw any lines on, and label any small dots as Indian or Chinese forces, etc...
 

twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
For anyone that is interested in the ground reality at Pangong, this is a very good interview with Colonel S. Dinny, who had commanded troops on Pangong.
Some takeaways:

Finger 4 essentially walls of Finger 3 from the finger 4 beach(foxhole point), making it very hard for soldiers of either side to cross.

China had a road leading from finger 8 to finger 4 since around 2000, making patrolling much easier for them.

As a result, despite what some believe, Indian soldiers rarely if every patrolled past finger 4 even though India's official claim is still the Johnson line. Hence, enforcing India's perception of the LAC through denial of territory is far more feasible than dominance of said territory.

This means a buffer zone between fingers 4 and 8 would effectively be status quo ante as of Feb. 2020. Col. Dinny also had been advocating for such a buffer zone for years.

 

twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yeah, they are biased against China, which is why it's more believable when they admit things in China's favor. When they make claims against China, they get disproven later. I don't remember about the FP article but the Bloomberg paper also uses satellite images. Just like when Indians claim that a Chinese Su-35 was "shot down" in Taiwan because of a picture, there is no verification on the source, date, labelling of camps/personnel/equipment of the satellite, etc... on the images that you use. It's essentially a picture that anybody can claim to be any date, draw any lines on, and label any small dots as Indian or Chinese forces, etc...
So basically any source that supports China is true, and any source that supports India is false. I cant argue with that logic, so we will have to agree to disagree. Regards.
 

twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
Who here suggested a complete Chinese victory?

No one. You want to see people here harp about a complete victory so that you may have your way.
No takers here for that. Rather, many here only want a win much more favorable to China.
I personally disagree that the win is more favorable to China. India got two of its objectives: staus quo ante in Pangong and securing strategic infrastructure projects. Not saying this is a complete Indian victory, but not a bad result for India. Though I guess we will have to agree to disagre.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
So basically any source that supports China is true, and any source that supports India is false. I cant argue with that logic, so we will have to agree to disagree. Regards.
Well, that's what it is when China keeps doing everything right and India screws up at everything (far beyond the scope of the conflict). Pakistan shoots down your jet; you shoot down your own helicopter in response. China returns Indian hostages by the dozens and India just makes empty claims about killing Chinese soldiers with not a single body part to show for it. Multiple tank malfunctions in the same competition until India just quits the comp altogether. Economics and COVID are the same: China scores top marks while India's down in the sewers. There is nothing that shows an ounce of competency for India that would make anyone think they could challenge China. Basically when you say that a heavyweight professional fighter was KO'd (or fought to a draw) by a 110 pound hobo swinging a stolen purse, you're gonna have to provide some extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary claim for anyone to find you mildly believable.

Hey, cool interview by an Indian official you posted. Bloomberg's source for India's territory loss as also an Indian official. Yours is good; that one is bad, right? LOL To be honest, it's so sad for India right now I wouldn't blame Indians for actually having no idea how the world is and how their country is in relation not to mention the details of a single conflict.
 
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taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
So basically any source that supports China is true, and any source that supports India is false. I cant argue with that logic, so we will have to agree to disagree. Regards.
Not "any source" but "any certain source". These certain sources (FT, Bloomberg and BBC, CNN etc.) are known to be biased at the least, and fake news at the worst regarding China. The articles from these sources are often written by Indians, essentially they are "indian" sources, so not being neutral.

If we change these "any sources" to Global Time, or Russian, Pakistani sources with articles by Chinese or Pakistani authors, would you give them the same treatment as you give to FT, Bloomberg etc.? We can ask you the same question. :cool:

I think that you have a default position that these "any source" are trustworthy to begin with. While many of us take the default position that these "any source" are liar until proven otherwise.

I do agree with you that we have to agree to disagree.
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
Bloomberg also reported that India captured a Chinese camp. Plenty of different media are saying different things. I thought Western and Indian sources are biased against China? I am basing my views from satellite images, which are some of the only neutral evidence we currently have.
Yes. Indeed. And it was posted in the forum. That happened south of Pangong Tso, if my recollection is right. The post India occupied was at Reqin(?) with the major base of Chushul nearby as the likely staging area. And it was a temporary/deserted Chinese post.

Plenty of "different media" aren't saying different things. Just include the medias of China and Pakistan along with the "plenty", give them equal weight, and you'll see.

Satellite images from Zoom? You got real time satellite images? Heh.

So basically any source that supports China is true, and any source that supports India is false. I cant argue with that logic,.
That's your logic. No one here has quoted Chinese or Pakistani sources.

Almost all of the posts in the past few pages are Indian News sources or foreign ones. It's you who asserts that they are lies just because they are not in agreement with India's ruling party marrative. They don't support China.
Some mental gymnastics you are engaging in.

Regards.
 

eprash

Junior Member
Registered Member
Why did China went with this agreement though? They hold all the cards here and it simply doesn't make sense, The concessions India got are just too generous
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
Why did China went with this agreement though? They hold all the cards here and it simply doesn't make sense, The concessions India got are just too generous
Only side that wins is the Anglos


Still we just gotta survive till Pompeo or some other nazi comes into power. Hope China will be ready technologically and militarily by then. India is really a side issue.
 

weig2000

Captain
Why did China went with this agreement though? They hold all the cards here and it simply doesn't make sense, The concessions India got are just too generous

The situation there is fuzzy, with the exact details hard to come by. I see members here arguing back and forth who wins more favorably with the disengagement. I view them more as psychological squabbles without knowing many of the details.

While the exact details are difficult for us to know, it's relatively easier to assess the picture at higher levels. There are two levels here: one is at the overall tactical positioning at the border, the other is at the national strategic level. I believe in any agreement reached without actually fighting a war, both sides will need to compromise. China will gain some of its key objectives, but it will also need to give India concessions. For China, the objective is not about a particular location of contention, but the overall positioning and posture afterwards.

China's goal in the current maneuvering was not a complete victory over India. It was really to counter some of India's aggressive moves and serve to warn India that their aggression was counter-productive and will be met with counter-measures. China's overall goal with India is to have a stable even if not friendly relationship; it's not about humiliating India or conquering large pieces of land, which would be at huge cost without actually gaining much strategic benefits. India is not China's priority, unless it provokes and pushes to escalate to be so.

Therefore, the rationale for the current disengagement from the Chinese side is partly in your question: that China has moved against India decisively and has demonstrated its position of superiority ("they hold all the cards here"). Now it can show its magnanimity and "generosity" - because it can afford to do so from a position of strength and it is consistent with China's larger strategic goal. China wants to focus on dealing with the US in the east, not to be bogged down with India on the border in the west if possible.

It's a very Chinese way of thinking. After the 1979 Sino-Vietnam border war, China and Vietnam continued to have sometimes fierce border conflicts well into the late '80s. It occupied some of the strategic mountain tops presumably belonging to Vietnam. The border conflict was a minor nuisance for China limiting to remote border region but a big burden for Vietnam economically and militarily. With the collapse of Soviet Union which was Vietnam's treaty ally and patron, the isolated and impoverished Vietnam wanted a way out. Its leadership requested and got a high-level private meeting with Chinese leadership in Chengdu in September 1990. Chinese President Jiang Zemin and Premier Li Peng and the full complement of Vietnamese leadership attended the meeting. The next year, Vietnam's top leaders paid an official visit to China and the two countries normalized the relationship, ending the 13-year hostility. China returned the mountain tops it occupied during the conflcits to Vietnam after the two countries demarcated the land borders later. Vietnam today is a thriving economy with GDP per capita much higher than India's, and with China being its largest trading partner even though it continues to have conflicting territory claims in South China Sea with China.

There is something for India to learn from Vietnam's experience. I understand many Indian elites would scorn at such idea, believing it is (projected to be) a superpower, not a poor third-world country like Vietnam, and as such demands China treat it as a superpower (that it might become in 50 years). But still.
 
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