Crisis in the Ukraine

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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
You are correct in that manner. However between the Air to Air and Surface to Air theory. The latter is more plausible and still has a air of issue regarding the culprit. Both sides have access to Buks only the Ukrainian Air Force and Russia have confirmed aircraft.

without a full investigation, a impossibility with both sides still shooting we may never know.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Sampan, I don't dispute the holes. I dispute there cause. We have circumstantial evidence at best. We have a conspiracy theory of a masterminded false flag. That is placing a Su25 way out of its flight envelope.
I point back to the key piece of evidence. A chunk of cockpit hull. One of the holed prices is identified as being a portion of the outer hull with red and blue striping located under and behind the cockpit window. This part is rattled with the holes in question. By there all entry points. The colored stripes identified it because of MH17s livery as being at the mid point of the hull. This means that the attacker had to be coming from over the wing on the left side at about level to MH17. This is a very odd position for a attack on a target like this optimum would be from behind where you could hide in the jets blind spots and attack at your leisure. It makes no sense. It is either absolute Lex Luther masterpiece of crime or total bunk. The missile shot theory is the most logical. And the easiest to cover up. A Missile blast is going to produce fragmentation and that could have made these.

Come on TE, that is boarding on being deliberately obtuse.

Lining up a slightly offset shot from behind is a classic attack profile. You don't need to go to the trouble of diving down out of the sun for a swoop attack, and you most certainly don't want to be flying directly behind your target when you are drilling it with cannon as the bits you are blasting off your target might give you some grief. Even the smoke from a burning/exploded target could cause you problems if your engine ingest it.

Since your target is a straight flying, lumbering airliner who has no idea you are lining up him, you can take your sweet time to pick your spot. And since you are flying a mud mover with no radar and only rudimentary air-to-air sights, and you don't want the pilots to say anything unusual on the radio, and you want to minimise the chances of leaving damning evidence, logic dictates you pick the easiest shot, get as close as you can, and you aim for the cockpit, all the while staying outside of LoS of the cockpit and passengers.

The trajectory you insist as 'odd' tick all of those boxes, and as far as I can tell, the only thing remotely 'odd' about it is that it doesn't confirm to how fighters attack in the movies.

If you want poke holes in the gun kill theory, you are far better off looking at real evidence, like pictures of these two pieces of wreckage, which shows damage patterns like what you would expect from a fragmentation warhead.

If you can convincingly show which part of the plane these two pieces might have belonged to, that would be far more compelling than insisting perfectly sensible and logical attack approaches are 'odd'.


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Edit, I am on my phone and failing at posting pictures, if anyone one of you kind sirs could hook a brother up, I would appreciate it.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
Did it deviate from its normal altitude and descend lower? Because if it did, the only reason would be due to an order. The investigators have not revealed any technical detail, it seems.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
And yet both you links go to proving the missile Theory Wolf.

Any who moving on
Ukrainian troops surround rebel-held city of Donetsk; rebels call for cease-fire
Published August 09, 2014Associated Press

Aug 9, 2014: Ukrainian government soldiers sit atop of a tank with the words reading "To Lviv" in Donetsk region, eastern Ukraine.
DONETSK, Ukraine – Ukrainian troops have surrounded the rebel-held city of Donetsk and the insurgents are willing to accept a cease-fire in order to stave off a humanitarian catastrophe, a top rebel leader announced Saturday.

Conditions in Donetsk, the largest rebel stronghold in eastern Ukraine, were clearly deteriorating. As the thunder of artillery reverberated Saturday, the streets of the city, home to nearly 1 million people before 300,000 fled the conflict, were nearly empty of cars and pedestrians. Most stores were closed.

There was no immediate government response to the statement from Aleksandr Zakharchenko, the so-called prime minister of the Donetsk separatists, or to reports that Donetsk was surrounded. Zakharchenko's comments could be aimed at increasing international pressure to allow in a Russian mission.

Russia, which the Ukrainian government in Kiev and Western countries allege is supporting the rebels, has called repeatedly for a humanitarian mission into eastern Ukraine. But Kiev and the West suggest that could be just a pretext to send Russian forces into the region -- and say some 20,000 Russian troops are just across the border.

"The situation is getting worse with every hour," Donetsk city council spokesman Maxim Rovinsky told The Associated Press.

At least one person was killed and 18 wounded in shelling Saturday that hit about 30 apartment blocks in Donetsk, he said, adding that about 2,000 residential buildings had no electricity.

Explosions were also heard Saturday on the northern outskirts near Donetsk's airport.

Ukrainian officials have consistently denied that their forces are shelling civilians, but the rebels dismiss that and claim the government is aiming to blame the insurgents for the increasing death and destruction in the region. Ukraine says the rebels have deliberately put rocket launchers in populated areas.

Some say both sides are to blame.

"We're afraid of the Ukrainian army, which is firing on the city, and of the rebels of the Donetsk People's Republic, who are robbing and killing civilians," said Dmitry Andronov, a 47-year-old resident.

Zakharchenko's statement that the city was surrounded came hours after the rebels' top commander said Ukrainian forces had seized a key town, Krasnyi Luch, effectively cutting off Donetsk and nearby territory from the rest of the rebel-held east.

"The Donetsk-Horlivka group of the fighters of Novorossiya is completely surrounded," Igor Girkin said on a rebel social media page.

Novosrossiya, or "New Russia," is a term widely used by the rebels for the eastern area that seeks independence from the government in Kiev. Horlivka, where rebels and Ukrainian forces are also fighting, is 30 kilometers (20 miles) north of Donetsk.

A spokesman for the Ukrainian military operation, Andriy Lysenko, told reporters Saturday that he could not confirm that Krasnyi Luch was under government control.

Concerns were also rising about a possible humanitarian catastrophe in the rebel's second-largest city of Luhansk, where fighting has been heavier and more prolonged. A map released by the Ukrainian military shows Ukrainian forces near the outskirts of Luhansk on three sides, with an opening to other rebel-held territory only to the south.

Russian news agencies quoted Luhansk authorities as saying Saturday that the city has been without water and electricity for a week and most of its stores were closed.

The deputy head of the Ukrainian presidential administration, Valeriy Chalyi, claimed Saturday that Russian forces wanted to enter Ukraine under the guise of a humanitarian mission but Ukraine had blocked the move.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov denied the claim, saying "there was no attempt by Russian soldiers at penetration," according to Russian news agencies.

But he reiterated Russia's call for humanitarian action, saying "this catastrophe now is the No. 1 theme for discussion."

The International Committee of the Red Cross said it was working to alleviate the crisis in eastern Ukraine but warned that any Red Cross aid convoy "will be taken in strict adherence to our fundamental working principles of neutrality, impartiality, and independence."

In the Ukrainian capital of Kiev, city workers and volunteers on Saturday removed the last of the barricades that had blocked the city's main street since anti-government protests began in November.

Protesters had erected the barricades to protect a sprawling tent camp on the city's main square. Although the camp's size dwindled sharply after pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych fled the country in February and a new government came to power, a determined core of demonstrators remained.

Yanukovych's ouster precipitated the crisis in Ukraine's east, which was his support base. Fighting began in April, after Russian President Vladimir Putin annexed Ukraine's Russian-speaking Crimean Peninsula.
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9 August 2014 Last updated at 16:52 ET
Ukraine crisis: Donetsk rebels call for ceasefire
Pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine's east have called for a ceasefire in Donetsk to avert a "humanitarian catastrophe".
Newly installed rebel political leader Aleksandr Zakharchenko made the call after other rebels said the army had taken a key city and encircled Donetsk.
Russia immediately renewed its offer to send a humanitarian mission, a day after Western powers warned against using such a mission to send troops.
An estimated 1,500 people have been killed in the four-month conflict.
Pro-Russian rebels stormed cities in the east and took over government buildings in April in a bid for independence.
But the government stepped up operations to retake rebel-held areas following the election of Petro Poroshenko as president in June.
'Completely encircled'
Rebel commander Igor Girkin was quoted by Russian media as saying that Krasnyi Luch, which connects Donetsk city with Ukraine's Luhansk region, had been "captured".
Girkin, who is also known as Strelkov, said his men in the Donetsk region were "completely encircled".
Mr Zakharchenko later said in a statement on a rebel website: "We are prepared to stop firing to bar the spread of the scale of the humanitarian catastrophe."
Russia, widely accused of supporting the rebels' efforts, also called for an "urgent action to avert an impending humanitarian crisis".
Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov made the request during a phone call with US counterpart John Kerry, a statement said.
"The minister urged support for Russia's initiative to deploy a humanitarian mission in the south-east in co-ordination with the relevant international structures," the foreign ministry statement said.
Mr Kerry apparently replied that such efforts were already being made by the Ukrainian government.
On Friday, the UK and US had warned Russia not to use a humanitarian mission as a pretext for sending its forces to help the rebels.
Meanwhile, reports from the city of Luhansk, second only to Donetsk in its importance to the rebels, suggest living conditions are dire.
The city council reported on its website (in Russian) on Saturday that the city of 425,000 people had been without electricity and power for a week.
Parts of the city were still being bombarded and most shops were shut.
The Ukrainian government, which has not commented on rebel claims about the situation in the east, says 13 soldiers and one civilian were killed in fighting on Friday.
In other developments
  • The Russian navy "expelled" a US submarine from its territorial waters in the Barents Sea on Thursday, a navy source told Russian media
  • Russia announced it was freeing five Ukrainian officers for "humanitarian reasons", a day after announcing their arrest for suspected war crimes in Ukraine
  • The authorities in the Ukrainian capital Kiev dismantled protest barriers erected during the winter in the city centre
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Russian Navy ‘forces US submarine out’ of Arctic boundary waters – report
Published time: August 09, 2014 14:42 Get short URL


Navy, Roman Kosarev, Russia, USA
A supposed US submarine was detected and “forced out” by the Russian anti-sub forces after it violated the country’s boundary waters in the Arctic, a high-ranked source within the Russian Navy’s headquarters said.

“On August 7, a foreign submarine, presumably belonging to the US Navy’s Virginia class, was detected in the Barents Sea by the alert forces of the Northern Fleet,” the source told Russian media.

According to the source, a group of anti-submarine vessels and an anti-submarine Il-38 aircraft were sent into the area on a search and trace mission.

“The vigorous action of the anti-submarine forces of the Northern Fleet resulted in the submarine being forced out of the boundary waters of the Russian Federation,” the source said.

“Contact with the submarine lasted for about 27 minutes and then the American sub left the area,” he added.

The source gave a reminder that it’s not the first case recently of a foreign submarine being spotted in the Barents Sea.

Such actions by the NATO undersea fleet have led to a number of navigation incidents in the Arctic.

“A collision with US nuclear submarine, Toledo, was one the main explanations of the Kursk submarine tragedy in 2000,” the Navy source said.

All 118 crewmembers died after Russia’s Kursk nuclear submarine sank in the Barents Sea on August 12, 2000.

In 1992, USS Baton Rouge collided with Russia’s K-276 submarine, while 1986 saw a crash between the British Royal Navy’s HMS Splendid and the Soviet Taifun vessel.
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I would post A American Article on this but there are none. Only the AP published a short version and the USN has not released a statement.
Ukraine's disappeared: 'What happens to them doesn’t seem to matter'
As conflict rages on in the east, families search for their lost loved ones, battling despair and the fog of war
August 7, 2014 5:00AM ET
by Sabra Ayres @babraham
KIEV, Ukraine — In Slovyansk, the police are still finding mass grave sites with unidentified bodies. In Luhansk, a retirement home is picking up the pieces after shelling killed five of its elderly residents. And in Poltava, Tatiana Efremova is praying that her mother, who has been missing for more than a month, is still alive somewhere in territory held by pro-Russia rebels.

“I’ve heard so many different versions about what might have happened to her that now I have no emotional reaction. Nothing comes as a surprise anymore,” Efremova said. “But no one seems to be working to find just regular people — volunteers — like my mom. What happens to them doesn’t seem to matter, and we’re the ones supporting Ukraine.”

As frustrations in the international community mount over stalled investigations into the cause of the crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, there is a growing sense in Ukraine that the toll on the civilian population is bearing in this violent conflict is being ignored. The feeling is especially true as Ukrainian government forces tighten the military noose around the major rebel-held city of Donetsk amid fears that an attempt to recapture it could spark a major humanitarian crisis.

A United Nations report on the Ukrainian crisis released on July 28 speaks volumes about the impact the war is having across the country’s population. At least 1,120 have been killed since mid-April, more than 800 of them civilians, with some 3,442 wounded. More than 100,000 internally displaced persons have fled violence in the east. And officially 375 people, like Efremova’s mother, are still missing.

Both sides of the conflict – the Ukrainian military and the separatists are fighting for independence – have pointed their fingers at each other for the toll the war has taking on Ukrainian civilians. The rebels accuse the Ukrainian forces of bombing their own people, while Kiev says the rebels are firing heavy artillery into residential areas to discredit the Ukrainian forces.

At least 1,120 have been killed since mid-April, more than 800 of them civilians, with some 3,442 wounded. More than 100,000 internally displaced persons have fled violence in the east. And officially 375 people are still missing.
When it comes to abductions and beatings, both sides are guilty, although cases in which rebels have tortured, held and even executed detainees are more prevalent, according to watchdog groups such as Amnesty International and the U.N. Human Rights Monitoring Mission.

Abductions have been a terrifying component of the crisis in Ukraine since the start of the Euromaidan protests in November of last year, when anti-government protesters took to the streets and eventually toppled the Moscow-favored President Viktor Yanukovych. At the time, a volunteer group called Euromaidan SOS collected statistics about hundreds of protesters who would go missing for days, only to turn up later beaten and bruised. Today, the organization says there are still 37 people missing from those street demonstrations in central Kiev.

When pro-Russia separatists took control of many cities in the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, hundreds of reports emerged of abductions of pro-Ukrainian activists, journalists, Ukrainian soldiers and civilians who were deemed to be enemies of the self-declared Donetsk or Luhansk “people’s republics.”

In Slovyansk, a rebel stronghold until it was retaken by the Ukrainian forces on July 4, the basement of the city’s security services building held dozens of prisoners who were repeatedly beaten and kept for weeks in its damp, dark cellars, according to prisoners who have since been released. Ukrainian police now charge that some of the prisoners may have been killed on orders of the rebel leader then in charge of the city, Igor Girkin, who goes by the nom de guerre Strelkov, meaning “shooter.” Strelkov is now based in Donetsk as the defense minister for the self-declared Donetsk People’s Republic.

Since the Ukrainian flag was once again raised on the roof of Slovyansk’s city hall, police investigators have uncovered at least 14 bodies from a mass grave and identified other sites they believe contain more of the missing from Ukraine’s war.

“Officially, we have 11 missing persons reports on file, but there are probably more out there. Many people may be too scared to come to us,” said Mikhail Khyzhnyak, the acting chief investigator for Slovyansk. “We’re still working on this problem.”

Thumbnail image for Ukraine Crisis
Ukraine Crisis
In-depth coverage of the conflict between Kiev and pro-Russia separatists in the east

Getting accurate numbers for those who are still missing and information on where they might be is extremely difficult in those areas still under the control of the separatist rebels. Ukrainian authorities have no ability to investigate in these areas, meaning various volunteer groups and human rights organizations are doing what they can to keep track of those who have disappeared or whom they believe have been captured by the rebels.

“Part of the problem is that everyone has a different list of missing people, and no one is comparing their lists and trying to work together,” said Enrique Menendez, a Donetsk businessman who has teamed up with two journalists and a local city councilwoman to try to mediate the release of people who have been taken by the rebels. “We’re trying to coordinate this, because unfortunately, I can’t see any systematic work from the Ukrainian government on this.”

For Efremova, the search for her mother started almost a month and a half ago on June 20. On that day, her mother, Irina Boiko, left Poltava with three other volunteers and headed for the Luhansk region to help with the evacuation of several women and children from the volatile area, where heavy shelling has claimed hundreds of lives since Ukrainian forces began the anti-terrorist operation in April. The volunteers traveled with basic food supplies in the trunk, which they planned to give to Ukrainian army checkpoints along the way.

The food donations are probably what got Boiko and her traveling partners in trouble with the rebels, Efremova said.

Tatiana Efremova and her mother
Irina Boiko, right, and her daughter, Tatiana Efremova. Courtesy Tatiana Efremova
Efremova got the first bothersome call a few hours after the group left Poltava, when her 48-year-old mother phoned to warn her daughter that they had been detained by rebels and accused of supporting the “enemy” Ukrainian army. A few hours later, a rebel called and said it was over: Efremova’s 48-year-old mother had already been shot dead. But hours later came another call, this one saying Boiko had been released. When Efremova asked frantically where she could come to collect her mother, the caller hung up. Another agonizing dead end, and Efremova’s seemingly endless nightmare of uncertainty dragged on.

In the course of the next few days, small clues trickled in. Boiko’s bankcard was used somewhere in Luhansk region to withdraw 20,000 Ukrainian hryvnia ($1,650). The state security service said they were able to track Boiko’s cell phone’s battery, but the SIM card must have been removed.

“I feel like I’m being tortured psychologically by the rebels with the way they are telling me something different every day,” Efremova said. “They tell me to call in one hour or call tomorrow. Sometimes they answer, sometimes they just hang up on me.”

Efremova now believes that her mother is being held as a prisoner in Horlivka, a rebel stronghold in the Donetsk province that has recently seen violent fighting as Ukraine encircles it and attempts to retake it from the rebels. A Russian named Igor Bezler, nicknamed “Demon,” commands the city.

A man who was recently released from Demon’s control told a family friend that he saw Boiko in the basement prison of the rebel’s headquarters. For now, that’s the best information Efremova has to go on, so her search is focused there.

“The government prioritizes the release of journalists or military personnel, but hardly mentions the volunteers who are missing,” Efremova said. “It’s really discouraging. It’s very dangerous for Ukrainian volunteers because often they are doing the job of the government, which makes the rebels hate them the most.”
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
And yet both you links go to proving the missile Theory Wolf.

So now pictures alone are good enough to prove a theory? :D

Those two pictures represent compelling evidence to suggest a missile strike, which is why I posted them, but they are hardly incontrovertible. Things other than a missile could quiet feasibly have caused impact patterns like that, such as an exploding engine or fuel tank just to pick a couple of examples OTTOMH.

That is why trying to identify where those pieces came from in the plane is important, as that information could help to disprove one of the theories or at least make one theory's case stronger.

It is difficult, but one should always strive to look at evidence and facts objectively, with clear eyes and cold logic and avoid allowing our own prejudices, bias, or preconception cloud our judgment.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
The Chinks you photographed are not the cockpit wolf. second the SU25 packs 250 rounds for it's Gsh-30-2 Which has a rate of fire of 3000 rounds per minute that means the pilot only has a 12 seconds of ammo. He needs to open up in short bursts across as small a target as possible. And if he's making a racking attack form the side he's going to get one pass.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Just two remarks:
US and NATO are watching and if the aircraft was shot down by the federalists or Russia they would have published evidence instead of easily forged social network messages.
To shoot down an airliner with an aircraft using cannon fire you don't approach from the direction of the Sun. You do that in a classical fighter to fighter shoot out. To attack an airliner you fly behind and below it and target an engine or the cockpit.

you guys need to forget that coming out of the sun business, and delft is right, the typical fighter attack is from astern, or at least an aft quarter if your going "guns up".
 

Broccoli

Senior Member
Lavrov is panicking and saying that Obama should support their "humanitarian mission to Ukraine", but no one is buying their lies anymore. Oddly enough Russian are interested to send humanitarian missions only now when their boys in Ukraine are surrounded... top kek.

Russians are already hoarding Finnish Valio products in shops before such luxuries are banned.
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Player 0

Junior Member
A return of goodwill perhaps?

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'Spreading the truth': Spanish volunteers join fight against Kiev in E. Ukraine (VIDEO)
Published time: August 10, 2014 00:46
Edited time: August 10, 2014 02:34 Get short URL
Screenshot from Ruptly videoScreenshot from Ruptly video
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Two Spanish volunteers have joined the fight against Kiev’s offensive on eastern Ukraine, speaking out against the actions of the nation's military. They say their main objective is to spread the truth about the conflict.

READ MORE: Ukraine’s violent escalation: From Molotov cocktails to ballistic missiles

Anhel Davilla-Rivas, 29, and Rafa Munez, 28, arrived in Donetsk two weeks ago to offer their assistance to the residents of eastern Ukraine.

“What we see in these weeks that we are here is only bombing of the people and the assault of all the fronts from Kiev. They are trying to separate the cities, they are sending mercenaries to kill the journalists and to demoralize any person that can tell the truth about what’s happening here,” Davilla-Rivas told RT’s Ruptly agency on Saturday.

The pair has not engaged in the fighting just yet, stressing that their main goal is to reveal the truth about what is happening on the ground.

Davilla-Rivas noted that Russia has no presence in the area and could do more in terms of humanitarian aid.

“I never see a Russian soldier...volunteers like us, but Russia is not really doing anything. And I think that Russia should do more for these people – not with guns, but helping people with medicine,” the Spanish volunteer said.


Davilla-Rivas also called on others around the world to come to eastern Ukraine and help in any way they can.

“More people have to come here. If they don’t want not to take the guns but...all people can help in something: in the kitchen, cleaning, telling the truth to countries from here, and watching the situation with their own eyes. It is more important that a lot of people come here and help in what they can, not necessarily only soldiers.”

READ MORE: Humanitarian catastrophe: Lugansk, E. Ukraine, left with no water, power

Both arrived by train to eastern Ukraine from Madrid and joined the Vostok battalion of the self-defense forces.

Meanwhile, Kiev forces surrounded the city of Donetsk on Saturday.

The Donetsk region militia said it is ready for a ceasefire to stop the humanitarian catastrophe.

READ MORE: Donetsk militia ready for ceasefire to prevent further humanitarian catastrophe

The statement comes as the UN voiced serious concerns over the situation in eastern Ukraine. “Innocent civilians trapped in the fighting continue to lose their lives,” UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said on Friday.

A woman walks threw wreckage after shelling in Donetsk on August 9, 2014.(AFP Photo / Dimitar Dilkoff)A woman walks threw wreckage after shelling in Donetsk on August 9, 2014.(AFP Photo / Dimitar Dilkoff)

“What we are scared about is the way the military operations are conducted. What will happen if we have intense fighting inside the big urban centers of Lugansk and Donetsk? Fighting in highly intensified urban areas could lead to massive exodus and massive destruction,” UN High Commissioner for Refugees Vincent Cochetel stated on Tuesday.

READ MORE: UN: Scared of the way military operations conducted in E. Ukraine

Russia’s Ambassador to the UN, Vitaly Churkin, has been calling for an international humanitarian mission to be launched. However, Kiev and some of its Western allies have opposed any humanitarian mission involving Russia. Kiev even accused Moscow of scheming to infiltrate eastern Ukraine with the help of the International Red Cross mission to “provoke a full-scale conflict.”

According to Moscow, however, a “full-scale” war is already taking place in the region and it needs to stop.

Late on Saturday, the press service of Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said on his official website that the US has been invited to take part in an international humanitarian mission to Lugansk. The mission, presented as Poroshenko’s initiative under the auspices of the International Committee of the Red Cross, was mentioned during his phone conversation with US Vice President Joe Biden.

The eastern Ukrainian city of Lugansk declared a state of humanitarian catastrophe on Tuesday, as there are no medical supplies, electricity, or lighting. There is also a lack of mobile and internet communication. Some 250,000 civilians are unable to leave, a statement on the city council website said.

A man inspects wreckage inside a damaged building following what locals say was shelling by Ukrainian forces in Donetsk August 7, 2014.(Reuters / Sergei Karpukhin )A man inspects wreckage inside a damaged building following what locals say was shelling by Ukrainian forces in Donetsk August 7, 2014.(Reuters / Sergei Karpukhin )

Over 1,100 people have been killed and 3,500 others injured in eastern Ukraine since Kiev’s offensive began. Around 100,000 people remain internally displaced and up to 740,000 have crossed the Russian border since January to stay with friends or relatives, or to seek refugee status.

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Broccoli

Senior Member
Funny how Russian official propaganda is screaming about KievJuntaNaziFascists and then when I read comments left by Russians and westerners who support Russian actions their messages are full most vile antisemitic garbage I have ever read in my life.


;)
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