I just wish to let the investigators do their professional work and not have their conclusion prejudiced by political pressure or sidetracked by red herrings of the social media type. Lets treat them like real homicide cops and let them do their work. Involved nations and many families need a closure to this tragedy, not let this case be an excuse to start Cold War, or even WW3.
Crisis in the Ukraine
- Thread starter bd popeye
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Instead of making snide remarks, maybe you should add something useful to the discussion. Post some empirical evidences like satellite photos, technical analysis of the debris from US state department. Something that your forum mates can judge for themselves instead of relying on your words alone.
I agree Dann, but all this speculation further clouds peoples perspective, the truth will come out, and I'm afraid that we may have people who wish to manufacture their own truth, some people just love a conspiracy, particularly when that fits their own version of the truth....... This is NOT a matter of opinion, there is cold hard evidence, and the truth will come out, in the meantime, I hope fellow posters will withhold judgement, but there IS a guilty party, and that will be obvious when the pieces of the puzzle are laid out.
I'm NOT making snide remarks, nor am I posting deliberate misinformation???
Not do fast AFB
On July 17th, your Secretary of State, thundered through every media channel, that he knew the rebels did it and he had the proof. Three weeks on and no proof of anything has been made available.
Only three sources of prima facia evidence has been provided to date:
1) The data and telemetry provided by the Russian Ministry of Defence on the 21st July,
2)The eye witness accounts of the OSCE officer who was on permanent placement on the crash site every day and who became familiar with virtually every piece of the wreckage (his words)
3)The local residents who told the BBC that they saw a military plane behind the airliner.
Which of these are you calling misinformation and on what facts/information are you basing the accusation?
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Sampan, I don't dispute the holes. I dispute there cause. We have circumstantial evidence at best. We have a conspiracy theory of a masterminded false flag. That is placing a Su25 way out of its flight envelope.
I point back to the key piece of evidence. A chunk of cockpit hull. One of the holed prices is identified as being a portion of the outer hull with red and blue striping located under and behind the cockpit window. This part is rattled with the holes in question. By there all entry points. The colored stripes identified it because of MH17s livery as being at the mid point of the hull. This means that the attacker had to be coming from over the wing on the left side at about level to MH17. This is a very odd position for a attack on a target like this optimum would be from behind where you could hide in the jets blind spots and attack at your leisure. It makes no sense. It is either absolute Lex Luther masterpiece of crime or total bunk. The missile shot theory is the most logical. And the easiest to cover up. A Missile blast is going to produce fragmentation and that could have made these.
I point back to the key piece of evidence. A chunk of cockpit hull. One of the holed prices is identified as being a portion of the outer hull with red and blue striping located under and behind the cockpit window. This part is rattled with the holes in question. By there all entry points. The colored stripes identified it because of MH17s livery as being at the mid point of the hull. This means that the attacker had to be coming from over the wing on the left side at about level to MH17. This is a very odd position for a attack on a target like this optimum would be from behind where you could hide in the jets blind spots and attack at your leisure. It makes no sense. It is either absolute Lex Luther masterpiece of crime or total bunk. The missile shot theory is the most logical. And the easiest to cover up. A Missile blast is going to produce fragmentation and that could have made these.
SouthernSky
Junior Member
Until I see evidence of bullets or fragments of such lodged in aircraft debris, which undoubtedly there would be if this occurred, I'm going to remain skeptical.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
1) could be misinformation, and if true doesn't mean that said aircraft was directly involved.
2) was a only after a preliminary inspection not a total investigation.
3) Eye witness testimony is not totally reliable. I posted a link about the flaws of memory and how a perception of a event can be skewed via external stimuli or political beliefs.
It has been an interesting day in the Donbass by all accounts.
There is a lot of reports that the Ukrainian army has taken Krasnyi Luch and technically isolated the Dontesk milita group form Lughansk and of course Russia. Interestingly these reports came from the Donetsk Prime Minster and was not confirmed by the Ukrainian defence minister.
The fall of Krasnyi Luch would indeed be a blow, as although it would not actually surround the City of Donetsk and its environs, but it would give control of a major crossroads of the two main highways in the region, which connect to both the Russian border and Lughansk.
The story was also odd as the city is the next main City East of Torez and it seemed strange that Krasnyi Luch could fall while Torez and Shahktorsk have not and considering the hammering that the 25th Airborne were given at those cities last week. It then struck me that K L is immediately adjacent to Miusinsk, where the remainder of the Cauldron Breakers had been chased off yesterday. I did wonder if the two events were not connected.
Thanks again to Colonel Cassad (a site which seems to have excellent official connections and be very well informed) which confirmed that rather then be a major armoured assault, it was the next bolt hole for the routed 24th Mechanized, although it may well be that they ordered into K L with a view to holding and being relieved by a proper offensive.
The scare was caused by the rear echelon defenders of K L being not the pick of the crop and many of them ran off when the 24th remaining armour rolled in. Fortunately, other defenders held their ground and the 24th lacked the fuel and ammo to make a real fight of it. Hardier militia reinforcements rolled in and the 24th sent into another rapid retreat.
K L is a sensible target for the Ukrainian forces and a proper assault group could easily be sent to try and push through to the City from the West. It however has not happened today by all accounts.
So why has DPR made the announcement that it did. Well it may have been reacting to new surprise news before fully understanding the situation, but this sounds unlikely. They knew where the 24th were and a run for K L can hardly have come as a surprise. No, I think this is part of patten being put out by the Russian media over the last few days and getting more intense every day. Russian media is making a big play of the Humanitarian situation in the breakaway areas and are certainly making the preliminary arguments you would expect in advance of an R2P humanitarian intervention. The US and UK certainly think this, which is why they have been issuing warnings to Russia not to do so.
Back to the battlefield, the militia are saying that they have taken up to a hundred working or salvageable armoured vehicles from the collapsed southern cauldron. They claim that up to thirty can be used pretty much straight away, while the others need minor through to very major repair. They have also been quite honest in admitting that their biggest problem in utilising the spoils is a shortage of personnel with the appropriate experience.
One item they seem very proud of capturing is an Akatsia 152mm SPH, whihc came with a full ammo load.
They were so happy they made a video.
[video=youtube_share;zZ8Us8MYYgg]http://youtu.be/zZ8Us8MYYgg[/video]
There is a lot of reports that the Ukrainian army has taken Krasnyi Luch and technically isolated the Dontesk milita group form Lughansk and of course Russia. Interestingly these reports came from the Donetsk Prime Minster and was not confirmed by the Ukrainian defence minister.
The fall of Krasnyi Luch would indeed be a blow, as although it would not actually surround the City of Donetsk and its environs, but it would give control of a major crossroads of the two main highways in the region, which connect to both the Russian border and Lughansk.
The story was also odd as the city is the next main City East of Torez and it seemed strange that Krasnyi Luch could fall while Torez and Shahktorsk have not and considering the hammering that the 25th Airborne were given at those cities last week. It then struck me that K L is immediately adjacent to Miusinsk, where the remainder of the Cauldron Breakers had been chased off yesterday. I did wonder if the two events were not connected.
Thanks again to Colonel Cassad (a site which seems to have excellent official connections and be very well informed) which confirmed that rather then be a major armoured assault, it was the next bolt hole for the routed 24th Mechanized, although it may well be that they ordered into K L with a view to holding and being relieved by a proper offensive.
The scare was caused by the rear echelon defenders of K L being not the pick of the crop and many of them ran off when the 24th remaining armour rolled in. Fortunately, other defenders held their ground and the 24th lacked the fuel and ammo to make a real fight of it. Hardier militia reinforcements rolled in and the 24th sent into another rapid retreat.
K L is a sensible target for the Ukrainian forces and a proper assault group could easily be sent to try and push through to the City from the West. It however has not happened today by all accounts.
So why has DPR made the announcement that it did. Well it may have been reacting to new surprise news before fully understanding the situation, but this sounds unlikely. They knew where the 24th were and a run for K L can hardly have come as a surprise. No, I think this is part of patten being put out by the Russian media over the last few days and getting more intense every day. Russian media is making a big play of the Humanitarian situation in the breakaway areas and are certainly making the preliminary arguments you would expect in advance of an R2P humanitarian intervention. The US and UK certainly think this, which is why they have been issuing warnings to Russia not to do so.
Back to the battlefield, the militia are saying that they have taken up to a hundred working or salvageable armoured vehicles from the collapsed southern cauldron. They claim that up to thirty can be used pretty much straight away, while the others need minor through to very major repair. They have also been quite honest in admitting that their biggest problem in utilising the spoils is a shortage of personnel with the appropriate experience.
One item they seem very proud of capturing is an Akatsia 152mm SPH, whihc came with a full ammo load.
They were so happy they made a video.
[video=youtube_share;zZ8Us8MYYgg]http://youtu.be/zZ8Us8MYYgg[/video]
Reality TNE is that I have no idea what really happened and am not qualified to give a technical opinion. I can only base my laymans view or opinion on the information placed in the public domain.
So far all the information provided points in one particular direction. Others that claim otherwise have yet to make anything available and the delay in doing so gives only an impression of obscuration and evasion. If people want a serious discussion of the rebel/BUK scenario, then they have to put up the hard evidence to support the theory.
Until that happens that theory is the conspiracy theory.
I would also counsel very hard about discounting the data provided by the Russian Defence Ministry without very solid data to back it up. If people and governments do however, they can hardly be surprised if others return the compliment.
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