China Flanker Thread II

[Engineer]

look to start all what i said has basis in physics and studies from ITP a real engine maker, your opinions are just from your opinions without actual real proof, just mere opinions of a forum no more you are welcome to say whatever.

In the real world, Sukhoi does not care about your opinion niether Lockheed or ITP

Actually, what you have said are merely your opinions, and regurgitation of marketing gimmicks from engine manufacturers. What I have offered is not an opinion, but a fact; and when I say fact I refer to the lack of enthusiasm of TVC displayed by the air forces around the world. If TVC is so great as you proclaimed, then every air force would flock to equip their fighters with one. Yet that is not the case, and this alone is enough proof to dispute your list of advantages.

Of course the Chinese want TVC nozzles, and a Supercruise engine, i do not work for Interfax, so If China and Russia are actually in negociations is something i can not prove beyond what interfax says.

The only thing i said is only time will tell, if China has the engine, yes they are not going to buy Su-35s, in fact, Su-35 is basicly a 4 generation Su-27 airframe with a 5th generation core avionics and engine.

China is testing some core avionics of 5th generation aircraft on J-10, the engine i do not know, do they have the supercruising engine? i do not know, is J-20 flying with a supercruising engine now? i do not know i know PAKFA is now on test for supercruising regime

J-11B could be a likely candidate to test such engine.


Russia chose to modify the Al-31 with fifth generation engine technologies, actually 117 has many new technologies, 117S is even more advanced.

Su-35 can fly supercruise in fact it has 3 of the 4S that J-20 needs, it has supercruising capability, supermaneouvrability and STOL it only lacks stealth airframe and an AESA radar.

So for me is a great mystery where is the 5th generation chinese engine i do not know if it is on J-20 or J-10 but it seems still is not there, the rest i leave it to your imagination

Of course China doesn't want the Su-35, and they have been pretty explicit about it when they disputed the rumors about Su-35 purchases months ago. In your own argument, you stated that China would want the Su-35 for TVC and supercruise engine. So, the fact that China doesn't want the Su-35 shows China does not want TVC and supercruise engine from Russia. It is that simple. China has no need for Su-35 and its subsystems when domestic alternatives are superior. Furthermore, Su-35 lacks stealth, lacks the capability to fire Chinese missiles, lacks the capability to data link with Chinese C4ISR, and lacks the capability to work with Chinese logistic structure. There is no mystery why China does not want to pay for an inferior product that doesn't work with Chinese systems.

 

[Engineer]

President Vladimir Putin said on Monday Russian arms export deliveries for the first six months of 2012 had reached over $6.5bn (£4.1bn), a 14% increase on the same period last year. That figure put Russia on track to beat last year's record-breaking total sales of $13.2bn, analysts said


With a 24% share of the global arms trade, Russia was the world's second largest arms exporter, lagging only behind the United States, with its 30% share, Putin said. Moscow delivered arms to 55 countries in all, he added.

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check the data before you opine, Russia remains selling well

So where is the export of Su-35? None apparently. Even Indian chose Rafale over Su-35.

As the saying goes "actions are louder than words". The actions of potential Su-35 customers turning away from this aircraft is pretty loud indeed.

 

[MiG-29]

So where is the export of Su-35? None apparently. Even Indian chose Rafale over Su-35.

As the saying goes "actions are louder than words". The actions of potential Su-35 customers turning away from this aircraft is pretty loud indeed.

India chose Rafale not because Su-35 are inferior, it simply is a heavy fighter, it never was in the competition, read before speaking Su-35 was never considered because India has Su-30MKI with TVC nozzles and will get PAKFA haha seems you are not aware of the outside world

The contenders were MiG-35, Gripen, F-16, Rafale and Eurofighter and a small detail Su-30MKI can take the 117 engine too plus India already build Al-31s with TVC nozzles







“This is the same Indian version, but it is designed for our Air Forces and has Russian-made avionics. All of the new Su-27 class aircraft will now be powered by thrust-vectoring engines, because since 2011, the Defense Ministry has mostly sought to buy new machines,” a UEC spokesman said. According to him, technically these engines can be installed even in older planes, because they tend to wear faster than the body; however, when the time comes to replace the engines, they will likely install regular engines without vectorable jet nozzles, as the Air Force has plenty in its arsenal. As of now, the planes powered by the new engine are only used at pilot training centers.

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read before speaking

In fact is possible that China might get the engines in future times but it seems Russia wants to sell the whole package now as Su-35


Chávez negocia la compra de aviones Su-35 a Rusia
July 20, 2012 Venezuela might be the first Su-35 buyer

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Chávez negocia con Rusia la adquisición de una flota de 35 cazas Sukhoi de última generación

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read spanish? no well venezuela is interested in Su-35

 

[MiG-29]

Actually, what you have said are merely your opinions, and regurgitation of marketing gimmicks from engine manufacturers. What I have offered is not an opinion, but a fact; and when I say fact I refer to the lack of enthusiasm of TVC displayed by the air forces around the world. If TVC is so great as you proclaimed, then every air force would flock to equip their fighters with one. Yet that is not the case, and this alone is enough proof to dispute your list of advantages.



Of course China doesn't want the Su-35, and they have been pretty explicit about it when they disputed the rumors about Su-35 purchases months ago. In your own argument, you stated that China would want the Su-35 for TVC and supercruise engine. So, the fact that China doesn't want the Su-35 shows China does not want TVC and supercruise engine from Russia. It is that simple. China has no need for Su-35 and its subsystems when domestic alternatives are superior. Furthermore, Su-35 lacks stealth, lacks the capability to fire Chinese missiles, lacks the capability to data link with Chinese C4ISR, and lacks the capability to work with Chinese logistic structure. There is no mystery why China does not want to pay for an inferior product that doesn't work with Chinese systems.

“When a plane powered by a regular engine is taken to a wide angle of attack at low speeds, it loses control and stability and starts moving independently of the pilot’s commands, i.e. the plane moves randomly. The Su-35 has perfect controllability at any speed, even at negative speeds, for instance, when the plane drops tail-forward. The pilot can effectively put the plane in any angular position,” Sergei Bogdan, a Su-35 and T-50 test pilot, explained to Izvestiya.

Sergei Bogdan says your opinions are not share by real fighter pilots　your opinion is just a forum opinion

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[Air Force Brat]

You missed the point entirely. If TVC is so good, then all countries would want it to be installed on their fighter now. US being the most capable could design TVC that can be retrofitted onto older fighter aircraft. Even if cost prevents every single aircraft to receive this upgrade, at least aircraft in forward deployment would see TVC installed. However, we see US making no such action, and from this one can infer that USAF does not see the action as worthwhile.

Lockheed and Sukhoi do manufacture and sales, and a salesman's objective is to get as much money as possible. Thus, the words of a salesman cannot be trusted due to the existence of conflict of interests. An air force is the user of the aircraft, and the opinions and actions of an user are what really matter.

The F-15, F-16, and F-18 are still quite competitive with any potential adversary so the fact that the US has never had a need to upgrade them is why we haven't pursued any upgrade to TVC so that argument is null, the F-35 is a strike aircraft, while it has some A2A it has never been and never will be an Air Superiority Fighter, so again no need for TVC. The only aircraft the US has ever built with TVC nozzles is the F-22, it was designed from day one to be supermanueverable, which it is, people seemed quite surprised when the reports from the Red Flag with the German Typhoons showed the Raptor to be more than a match for the Typhoon. The head of the USAF Air Combat Command called the Raptor the most capable tactical aircraft in the world. So where does that leave us, ask a Raptor pilot if he would prefer his Raptor without TVC in order to avoid all the supposed difficultys that it causes, he wouldn't. Now this thread is dedicated to Flankers, the Flanker is a Russian design, the Russians have TVC on the Su-35 and several other upgrades to improve pitch control, why because the Flanker Russian or Chinese, samo, samo, are big birds and while quite agile, TVC is a game changer. They also have TVC on their T-50 prototypes, samo. Now, just because someone is selling airplanes, doesn't mean they are crooks, the F-22 will do what is was designed to do, so will the Flankers, so will the J-10, will the T-50? will the J-20? ?????? so two J-20s? 4 T-50s, and Dr Song himself stated that the ideal for the J-20 was to have TVC, but he lamented No good engines, perhaps in the future he said. So while the J-20 and T-50 are promising designs, they remain in the prototype phase? Right? that means the J-10 and J-11 are Chinas front line fighters right? So I'll take mine with TVC, you may take yours without, if China does come up with a reliable powerplant with TVC, it will go on the J-20 and likely the J-11 and J-15, I'll put a Franklin on that son. Good night all, Chitown at 4 bells in the am, Cheers Brat, sorry eng, I just like blowin hot air TVC fits right in bro.

 

[Engineer]

“When a plane powered by a regular engine is taken to a wide angle of attack at low speeds, it loses control and stability and starts moving independently of the pilot’s commands, i.e. the plane moves randomly. The Su-35 has perfect controllability at any speed, even at negative speeds, for instance, when the plane drops tail-forward. The pilot can effectively put the plane in any angular position,” Sergei Bogdan, a Su-35 and T-50 test pilot, explained to Izvestiya.

Sergei Bogdan says your opinions are not share by real fighter pilots not by forum opinions

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What you have mentioned above is called post-stall maneuverability. While this may be a great thing to have once the aircraft has entered a stall, it is a bit of a stretch to claim it is an advantage. The reason being is that in a dog fight, stall is the last thing an aircraft needs.

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, employing the TVC during dog fight causes the aircraft to lose speed and energy, making the aircraft riped to be killed. In other words, post-stall maneuverability has little practical purpose if doing so causes the aircraft to be killed.

Advantages of TVC are greatly exaggerated. They, along with your opinions are not shared by real fighter pilots who have operated with and against aircraft with TVC.

 

[MiG-29]

What you have mentioned above is called post-stall maneuverability. While this may be a great thing to have once the aircraft has entered a stall, it is a bit of a stretch to claim it is an advantage. The reason being is that in a dog fight, stall is the last thing an aircraft needs.

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, employing the TVC during dog fight causes the aircraft to lose speed and energy, making the aircraft riped to be killed. In other words, post-stall maneuverability has little practical purpose if doing so causes the aircraft to be killed.

Advantages of TVC are greatly exaggerated. They, along with your opinions are not shared by real fighter pilots who have operated with and against aircraft with TVC.

haha but in supercruise that Su-35 has TVC nozzles so Su-35 reduces RCS and drag and increases range and a small detail Fornof said the Indian pilots do not know yet how to fly Su-30MKI, but in reality the Su-30MKI is superior to F-15 and F-16.


So Su-35 supercruises does J-11B supercruise? J-10 does supercruise? and J-10 with those large canards deflectig them will increase RCS does not matter it has DSI intake, Su-35 can fly supercruise, Rafale too Eurofghter too; add the increased safety a TVC nozzle fitted aircraft has

 

[Engineer]

India chose Rafale not because Su-35 are inferior, it simply is a heavy fighter, it never was in the competition, read before speaking Su-35 was never considered because India has Su-30MKI with TVC nozzles and will get PAKFA haha seems you are not aware of the outside world

The contenders were MiG-35, Gripen, F-16, Rafale and Eurofighter and a small detail Su-30MKI can take the 117 engine too plus India already build Al-31s with TVC nozzles

Excuses. Su-35 was offered to India, which was rejected. As simple as that. This shows that despite Su-35 being touted as more technologically superior to its predecessors, it offers little in reality that not even India became interest. Subsequently, India had the MRCA competition in the hopes of acquiring technologies from European countries.

“This is the same Indian version, but it is designed for our Air Forces and has Russian-made avionics. All of the new Su-27 class aircraft will now be powered by thrust-vectoring engines, because since 2011, the Defense Ministry has mostly sought to buy new machines,” a UEC spokesman said. According to him, technically these engines can be installed even in older planes, because they tend to wear faster than the body; however, when the time comes to replace the engines, they will likely install regular engines without vectorable jet nozzles, as the Air Force has plenty in its arsenal. As of now, the planes powered by the new engine are only used at pilot training centers.

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read before speaking

In fact is possible might the engines in future times but it seems Russia wants to sell the whole package


Chávez negocia la compra de aviones Su-35 a Rusia
July 20, 2012 Venezuela might be the first Su-35 buyer

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Chávez negocia con Rusia la adquisición de una flota de 35 cazas Sukhoi de última generación

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read spanish? no well venezuela is interested in Su-35

In other words, the Su-35 has zero sale so far. All you gave are rumors. Rumors said Brazil was likely to buy Su-35 as well,

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. Rumor regarding China's interest turns out to be nothing more than someone's figment of imagination.

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, yet the delivery date came and went. To this day, the purchase remains nothing more than a rumor about Venezuela being interested.

 

[MiG-29]

Excuses. Su-35 was offered to India, which was rejected. As simple as that. This shows that despite Su-35 being touted as more technologically superior to its predecessors, it offers little in reality that not even India became interest. Subsequently, India had the MRCA competition in the hopes of acquiring technologies from European countries.



.

Chavez already asked information about Su-35, so all what you say is typical of you, do you read spanish do you?

El presidente venezolano, Hugo Chávez, ha expresado a Moscú su interés en comprar una flota de 35 cazas Sukhoi Su-35S, que se ha convertido la principal aeronave de las Fuerzas Armadas de Rusia, como parte de sus esfuerzos para hacer de esa nación sudamericana una potencia militar

Seems you are unable i will do it for you

El presidente venezolano, Hugo Chávez, ha expresado a Moscú su interés en comprar una flota de 35 cazas Sukhoi Su-35S

Hugo Chavez has requested to Moscow his (nation`s) desire to purchase a fleet of 35 Su-35s


So it seems you lack knowledge too in the Rafale adquisition but what can you do.


So it seems Venezuela will be the first buyer of Su-35.

Now Su-35 never was offered in the MRCA tender, that is a Flat lie of you but what i can expect from you?

get your wiki basic knowledge

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Russia offered to India the upgrade of Su-30 and India already builds Al-31 with TVC nozzles

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Sukhoi de última generación
18/07/2012 21:38 do you see the date? last month hahha
.En un acto público realizado este miércoles, Chávez ha revelado que se puso en contacto con Moscú para "evaluar la posibilidad de adquirir en los próximos años una flota de Sukhoi 35 para seguir modernizando y fortaleciendo el poderío militar defensivo de Venezuela". "¿Quien se podía imaginar que nosotros íbamos a tener el caza mas moderno del mundo? Bueno, allí lo...

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[Engineer]

haha but in supercruise that Su-35 has TVC nozzles so Su-35 reduces RCS and drag and increases range and a small detail Fornof said the Indian pilots do not know yet how to fly Su-30MKI, but in reality the Su-30MKI is superior to F-15 and F-16.

So Su-35 supercruises does J-11B supercruise? J-10 does supercruise? and J-10 with those large canards deflectig them will increase RCS does not matter it has DSI intake, Su-35 can fly supercruise, Rafale too Eurofghter too;

The claim that TVC reduces RCS is dubious. If control surface deflections can cause increase of RCS, so would deflection of nozzle petals. Likewise, if deflection of control surfaces cause drag, then so would articulation of the nozzles.

In reality, at cruise where RCS matters the most, deflection of control surfaces is very minute and the resulting change in RCS is negligible. Thus deflection of canard in cruise does not result in increase RCS. When deflection becomes large, it means the plane has already entered WVR engagement where RCS matters little. As for drag, it is a result of forward momentum of the plane being converted to angular momentum, a form of energy transfer. Using TVC still requires this conversion of energy, just through a different means whereby forward thrust is diverted to off-axis thrust. The end is still lost in forward momentum.

In any case, despite your portrayal of Su-35 as some sort of super plane, China is not interested in buying. That's the reality. According to your own argument, this shows China already has domestic alternatives.

add the increased safety a TVC nozzle fitted aircraft has

The increased mechanical complexity that a TVC nozzle would actually reduce safety. Now, one could argue post-stall maneuverability is an increased safety. However, since there is little reason why a plane should go into a stall in the first place, this same safety can be offered by hard protection in the FCS to prevent the aircraft from stalling. Tailspin can be corrected by a drag chute, and doesn't necessary require TVC.