China Flanker Thread II

[kroko]

So unless China can catch up with Russia in less than 8 years then you are right, otherwise they probably want to buy it

remember that china thinks long term regarding military industry/capabilities. PLA is no longer in a dire position like it was in the 90´s.

 

[Engineer]

i know here we are in a forum and everyone says what ever we think. however tha answer for the Su-35 news is related in two ways


When? and what?


yes is when China will have a domestic supercruising TVC nozzled fitted engine for their fighters in production?
if they have it now, then you are right they do not need the Su-35, if they are about to have it and have solved almost all the problems, yes you could be right, otherwise, the Su-35 is needed if thy are unable to do it in at least 5-10 years period.

Here is a simple fact: China has absolutely no interest in the Su-35. This already reflects China does not view this plane positively. I think it has become quite clear that the Russian receive little international interests in this aircraft, otherwise some people would not feel the needs to bring out such false rumors every few months.

the what question is simple



what engines has China able for supercruise and with TVC nozzles available in production now?


Time will tell if they buy the Su-35 or not now i can say it wil take around 2-3 years to be solved this issue, because Russia wants at least 50-60 Su-35 bought by China, and this time unlike the Su-33, the Su-35 can not be sold by third parties, plus if China has a supercruising TVC nozzle with supercruise capability engine well they do not need the Su-35, but at this time Russia has 3 types of supercruising engines. it has the 117, 117S and T-30 engines with supercruising capabilities, 117 is in series production for Su-35BM, 117S is for the initial batches of PAKFA and in limited series production and T-30 is in tests, T-30 is the real deal in terms of performance.


So unless China can catch up with Russia in less than 8 years then you are right, otherwise they probably want to buy it

China has not only caught up but has already exceed Russia in fighter aircraft and related subsystems. J-20 is a perfect example. This is the simplest and a perfect explanation as to why China has no needs for the Su-35.

 

[Engineer]

TVC nozzles and the 117 engine it self are advantages that increase the ability of Su-35 beyond J-11B a great deal.


To put it simple the advantages range from higher thrust, STOL capability, longer range, better turn and roll rates, post stall capability.

TVC can hardly be called advantageous when it is offset by loads of disadvantages such higher mechanical complexity, which leads to higher weight and shorter lifespan. Furthermore, in that list of advantages you have cited, only increased roll rate and post stall capability is related to TVC, but the latter has little practical usefulness as it slows down the plane enormously. The remaining items in your list have little relevancy to TVC. For example, the contributors to higher thrust are mainly larger bypass-ratio or increase turbine inlet temperature. Higher thrust would automatically lead to shorter takeoff length; and assuming the same amount of fuel is used means longer range. Turn rate is related to total lift generated by the aircraft, and TVC does not provide this lift.

Plus Su-35BM can supercruise, it means only Rafale, Eurofighter can do it in 4++ fighter aicraft and F-22 and PAKFA can do it too, J-20 it supposed it will do it, i do not know if now it does it, but PAKFA as we speak is having test of supercruising now.


So Su-35 can supercruise and choose how to fight while J-10 can not supercruise and Su-35 can dogfight with a J-10 easily even with some advantages, add the Russian Machine has more thrust available then you will get a bigger payload carrying capability, it means better BVR capability and longer legs CAP capability and at 400KM detection capability for a 3 square meter target means a J-10 can be detected at 200km since a F-35 can be detected at 90km.

pretty much Su-35 has 5th generation technologies with the exception of full aspect stealth

If Su-35 is so much better than what China has, then China should have brought some already according to you. However, we see that is not the case as China expressed no interest in the aircraft. So, either the Su-35 is not as good as the Russian claimed, or China already has something that exceeds the Su-35's capabilities. Indeed, why would China need to make J-10 go supercruise when J-20 would suffice?

 

[hmmwv]

So unless China can catch up with Russia in less than 8 years then you are right, otherwise they probably want to buy it

Not they don't. China may want to buy the engine, but not the whole plane. With two types of full on fifth gen fighters on the way China will not want to buy what's essentially obsolete technology just to get the engine. Yeah it's nice to have 117S, just like it's nice to have S400, but capabilities offered by both systems are not deemed absolutely necessary to PLA, so they are willing to wait for domestic equivalent instead of buying from Russia. If Chinese weapons development in recent years is an indication it won't take long.

No matter how you spin it, the China buying Su35 joke will remain as wishful thinking of the Russians.

 

[Air Force Brat]

remember that china thinks long term regarding military industry/capabilities. PLA is no longer in a dire position like it was in the 90´s.

No, but they also want capability today, not tommorow, as far as we know they have two airworthy J-20 prototypes, I really think having the Su-35 in the interim, as well as access to those TVC equipped Russian engines in the interim might play to their advantage, all protestations to the contrary aside, and I "know" those engineers at Chengdu would love to see what their baby would do with a pair of TVC equiped powerplants!

 

[MiG-29]

remember that china thinks long term regarding military industry/capabilities. PLA is no longer in a dire position like it was in the 90´s.

probably i did not express my point well.


I am not claiming anything.

The news of interfax were quiet funny to me because still are claiming in August are in negociatons.

If they are or not i do not know only time will tell.

I do not know if China has a 117 engine equivalent operatational or near operational capability, but i know Russia has 3 engines with supercruise and they want to sell the 117 only if it means large batches and on Su-35s

 

[MiG-29]

TVC can hardly be called advantageous when it is offset by loads of disadvantages such higher mechanical complexity, which leads to higher weight and shorter lifespan. Furthermore, in that list of advantages you have cited, only increased roll rate and post stall capability is related to TVC, but the latter has little practical usefulness as it slows down the plane enormously. The remaining items in your list have little relevancy to TVC. For example, the contributors to higher thrust are mainly larger bypass-ratio or increase turbine inlet temperature. Higher thrust would automatically lead to shorter takeoff length; and assuming the same amount of fuel is used means longer range. Turn rate is related to total lift generated by the aircraft, and TVC does not provide this lift.



If Su-35 is so much better than what China has, then China should have brought some already according to you. However, we see that is not the case as China expressed no interest in the aircraft. So, either the Su-35 is not as good as the Russian claimed, or China already has something that exceeds the Su-35's capabilities. Indeed, why would China need to make J-10 go supercruise when J-20 would suffice?

Look each company decides what is the best for the fighters but both Lockheed and Sukhoi Chose for TVC nozzles, and Sukhoi chose for TVC nozzles and supercruise for the Su-35, if Shengyang decided J-11B does not need TVC nozzles that is okay if they think that, same is dassault, but aircraft design sometimes is a betting in which each air force decides what is best.

For Sukhoi and Lockheed TVC nozzles do mean advantages that reegardless what you say they will fit and i think they are right the rest is up to you

 

[Engineer]

Look each company decides what is the best for the fighters but both Lockheed and Sukhoi Chose for TVC nozzles, and Sukhoi chose for TVC nozzles and supercruise for the Su-35, if Shengyang decided J-11B does not need TVC nozzles that is okay if they think that, same is dassault, but aircraft design sometimes is a betting in which each air force decides what is best.

For Sukhoi and Lockheed TVC nozzles do mean advantages that reegardless what you say they will fit and i think they are right the rest is up to you

Lockheed or Sukhoi's opinion on TVC does not matter at all. What matters is whether the air forces around the world think TVC is worthwhile. Take the US for example, F-22 is the only aircraft that is fitted with TVC but it is not outside of US capabilities to design TVC to retrofit older fighters. However, US clearly chosen not to do so because such action is not worthwhile. European countries equip with Eurofighters can op for TVC as well, but none of them have done so. In fact, Eurojet needed one plane for flight test and their wish was not granted. As far as China's air force is concerned, their lack of interest in Su-35 reflects their lack of interests in subsystems of the plane, including TVC. Whether you think TVC have advantages at all is irrelevant, as China is not interested in Su-35 no matter how you or anyone try to spin it. That's the core of the issue.

 

[drunkmunky]

The deployment of tvc on conventional and stealth aircraft is still up on the air. AT THE MOMENT.
until consistent deployment of tvc is adapted to 4th gen and 4.5 gen fighters ie: eurofighter retrofit, I find it difficult to believe that China will provide as much finding as the dedicated ws-10 and ws-15 program.

my own opinion? baby steps!

 

[asif iqbal]

F16 Fighting Falcon is primary a fighter aircraft, F16 can pull 9g and it isn't that hard to get it to pull that kind of tight turn since it is such a well balanced aircraft, the amazing thing is the aircraft does what the pilot wants it to do, when it wants to do it

F15 is a air superiority aircraft, no doubt it can dogfight but not in the same way as F16, the super hornet is designed for low altitude fast turns where the air is thick take it up to 30,000-40,000 feet 450 knots and it won't out turn a F16

Flanker is a multi role aircraft designed for air-land, air to ship and air to air also as a bomber, it's not designed to engage in a tight turning fight although it's been given all the tools to do so, But at the end of the day no matter if you give it thrust vectoring or super cruise the airframe does not give it the agility to engage close qaurters nor does it have the advantage

J10 is in the same category as F16, so it is no surprise it can out do Flanker in WVR