Well Brat, you are too kind.
and as someone has noted the J-11/15 is a big bird, it will benefit greatly from OVT in the close in turn and burn. The J-10 is obviously an easier aircraft to dogfight, and since its lighter, it doesn't take as much kinemetic energy to turn it, in contrast the J-11 is a big airplane and you bleed a lot of energy changing directions, you have to create a lot of lift, and that creates a lot of drag.
Simple physics, that is why the Su-35, with canards and OVT is at less of a disadvantage.
Just a slight nit pick, but I think TVC engines are way over-blown and I am very skeptical of their usefulness in a dogfight.
I think I do not need to remind you of the experience of the Indian MKIs at red flag when they were too trigger happy with the TVC button.
As you have rightly pointed out, the Flanker is a big birdy, and the harder it turns, the more drag is created and the less kinetic energy and airspeed the pilot has to play with.
The sustained turn rate of a fighter depends far more on how much lift it's airframe can generate than TVC, the only thing TVC would massively aid is instantaneous turn rates, whereby the pilot sacrifices most of his airspeed and kinetic reserves to depart the aircraft and briefly point the nose of the aircraft to get a snapshot off before recovering and burning hard to regain some of it's lost speed and energy reserves before someone nails it.
That's about as close to useful as the likes of the Cobra will ever get in a real life combat environment (although I doubt any sane pilot would think about pulling a Cobra in combat even if he was attacking). However, you need to remember that just as the Flanker wallows and staggers after a Cobra and seem to almost stand still, the same will happen if you tried something similar in combat, and in the few seconds after you do a cobra (or extreme TVC maneuver), you are literally a sitting duck, so it's an extremely risky move to pull.
Now, my point is that since the Flanker is already a big, draggy airframe, the last thing it needs is a way to generate twice the drag in half the time if it wants to remain competitive as a dogfighter against smaller, lighter and more agile opponents.
As such, I very much doubt that a heavier flanker with TVC and canards but less powerful engines will automatically be better in WVR than a bare bones Flanker without TVC or canards.
Remember that at the end of the day, the Russians themselves deleted the canards off of the Su35. The canards would help the Su35's nose turning ability, but there can be too much of a good thing with nose pointing ability as I have already pointed out, and I think the Russians concluded that the extra drag and weight penalty they are incurring as a result of having canards is not worth the dubious benefit of being able to bleed airspeed faster.
It all comes down to tactics, you have to fight to your advantage, this could have been a "lesson" to show the J-11b boys, that just because you have a shiny new powerfull aircraft, you don't automatically win.
Excellent point. I remember reading about the experiences of an F15 jockey a few years back. He noted that in DACT between F15s and F18s, the pilots would fly their planes very differently to maximize the different strengths of their respective birds.
The F18 is a very agile little bird, so their pilots would try to force the F15s into turning dogfights, where the Hornets enjoyed the advantage. The F15 jocks otoh, would try to fight in the vertical plain, since the Eagles had superior acceleration and fuel fraction, so they would choose to go vertical to break out of turning dogfights and then dive back down to use their altitude and better acceleration to generate superior airspeed and energy reserves when they re-engage.
Since the PLAAF's J11s often play the 'Blue Force' in DACT, I think PLAAF flanker pilots should know this game pretty well as they would have seen more than their fair share of engagements against agile J7s.
Now with all that in mind, I think that for a large bird like the Flanker or Eagle, the increased weight and reduced thrust from TVC engines is just not a very good trade-off for slightly improved sustained and massively improved instantaneous turn rates. Quite frankly, they should not even be trying to play the turning game against smaller, more agile opponents. I would take more powerful non-TVC engines any day.
This would, incidentally, also help to explain why the WS10's initial slow spool-up time was such a big problem for the PLAAF. If their flankers' biggest advantage in WVR was their good acceleration, loosing that as a result of poor spool-up time on the engines would be a massive no-on.
However, I think the main reason the Flankers (J11As and Bs) have been having a torrid time against J10s in WVR is because unlike the J7 or F18 that can out-turn a Flanker/Eagle but cannot match it for acceleration, having seen the J10's vertical-climb-immediately-after-take-off party trick, I have a feeling the J10 has the edge in both a turning and climbing fight against the Flanker, and that leaves the poor old flanker pilots with a bit of a head scratcher as to how to deal with the J10, and thus far, the PLAAF Flanker pilots have been drawing blanks. It could just be that the physical advantages the J10 design have over the legacy flanker is just simply too big for clever tactics to overcome, much like how try as they may, USAF's legacy fighter pilots always gets their butts kicked by F22s.
This could help to explain why the J11B's loss to the J10s in BVR as well as WVR was so disappointing for PLAAF. If they pretty much have given up on J11s being able to outfight J10s in WVR, BVR is the only arena the J11 might hope to compete with the J10 on level or favorable terms, and I am sure the PLAAF were hoping that the new improve radar and avionics of the J11B might give them the edge in BVR.
As I said in my last post, I am still inclined to give the J11B and their pilots the benefit of the doubt and hope that once they have had more time to train and familiarize themselves with the new layout and capabilities of the J11B, that they might be able to use it to full effect to beat the J10 in BVR (until the J10B comes along at least
).
