Z-20 (all variants) thread

MwRYum

Major
From my perspective Z-20 is about the most boring project going on in the PRC today. An indigenous development of a 40yr-old foreign design = snore. This thing is even older in its basic design lineage than JH-7 was at the time it was introduced, and indeed it seems more appropriate to that era in Chinese development, i.e. 90s to early 2000s.

If you are going to indigenise a foreign design in 2016, the least you could do is work from something reasonably modern like AW101.

In any case I hope they can pump out the numbers they need quickly (hopefully the saving grace is that it is cheap and simple to produce) and then move on to a next generation of (more interesting) rotorcraft.
When you consider the US own latest varient is the UH-60M and the next-gen candidate still haven't gone beyond mockup stage, then the Blackhawk design isn't that "so obsolete". As such, it's a matter of at what level that the Z-20 will be - if it's indeed at par or close with the UH-60M then the gap is just 10 years (UH-60M began production 10 years ago), if it's UH-60A....then somebody need to be dragged outside and be shot.
 

Franklin

Captain
From my perspective Z-20 is about the most boring project going on in the PRC today. An indigenous development of a 40yr-old foreign design = snore. This thing is even older in its basic design lineage than JH-7 was at the time it was introduced, and indeed it seems more appropriate to that era in Chinese development, i.e. 90s to early 2000s.

If you are going to indigenise a foreign design in 2016, the least you could do is work from something reasonably modern like AW101.

In any case I hope they can pump out the numbers they need quickly (hopefully the saving grace is that it is cheap and simple to produce) and then move on to a next generation of (more interesting) rotorcraft.
China is building up its military might on the cheap. They are doing this by on the one hand reverse engineering proven foreign designs rather they are from America, Russia or Europe a like. And on the other hand by allowing the civilian sector to take the lead in several key area's of technology like computing, electronics, machine tools, shipbuilding etc. By doing these things China has been able to build up its now considerable military might without taxing the economy too much.

The Z-20 and the Y-20 both had their first flight in the same year 2013. The Z-20 took its first flight 11 month after the Y-20. That was in december 2013. Now we are in october 2016 and there are no signs that the Z-20's testing period is coming to an end or that production is about to start soon. So the Z-20 will have a longer testing period than the Y-20. This is in part because of the extraordinary resources that the Y-20 program has recieved because of China's desperate need for a heavy airlift and because of the strategic implications of such a platform. The other reason is that the Z-20 is also testing a new engine as well "the WZ-10". The first production Y-20's uses a Russian engine while the domestic WS-20 is still in development.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
... Now we are in october 2016 and there are no signs that the Z-20's testing period is coming to an end or that production is about to start soon. So the Z-20 will have a longer testing period than the Y-20. This is in part because of the extraordinary resources that the Y-20 program has recieved because of China's desperate need for a heavy airlift and because of the strategic implications of such a platform. ....


Yes, but tat's also due to the fact that a strategic transport like the Y-20 is bit more difficult to hide than the smaller Z-20.
As such we do not really know how far the testing is already progressed ... following some reports I read, LRIP has also already begun.

Deino
 

Lethe

Captain
When you consider the US own latest varient is the UH-60M and the next-gen candidate still haven't gone beyond mockup stage, then the Blackhawk design isn't that "so obsolete". As such, it's a matter of at what level that the Z-20 will be - if it's indeed at par or close with the UH-60M then the gap is just 10 years (UH-60M began production 10 years ago), if it's UH-60A....then somebody need to be dragged outside and be shot.

There is a world of difference between further investing in a platform that you have already developed and fielded in large numbers, and producing a design for the first time. UH-60M was a sensible investment for USA in the same way that H-6K (or Z-18) was for China, but that doesn't mean that those platforms are competitive with modern clean-sheet designs, or a sensible target for others to seek to emulate.

As an update to an existing platform Z-20 would be fine. As a brand new craft fielded in 2016 it is distinctly unimpressive -- almost uniquely unimpressive in the context of recent Chinese development efforts.
 
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kroko

Senior Member
There is a world of difference between further investing in a platform that you have already developed and fielded in large numbers, and producing a design for the first time. UH-60M was a sensible investment for USA in the same way that H-6K (or Z-18) was for China, but that doesn't mean that those platforms are competitive with modern clean-sheet designs, or a sensible target for others to seek to emulate.

As an update to an existing platform Z-20 would be fine. As a brand new craft fielded in 2016 it is distinctly unimpressive -- almost uniquely unimpressive in the context of recent Chinese development efforts.

Perhabs this program has been around for a long time and only now they have had a suitable engine for it. That could explain only now we are seeing it.
 

superdog

Junior Member
There is a world of difference between further investing in a platform that you have already developed and fielded in large numbers, and producing a design for the first time. UH-60M was a sensible investment for USA in the same way that H-6K (or Z-18) was for China, but that doesn't mean that those platforms are competitive with modern clean-sheet designs, or a sensible target for others to seek to emulate.

As an update to an existing platform Z-20 would be fine. As a brand new craft fielded in 2016 it is distinctly unimpressive -- almost uniquely unimpressive in the context of recent Chinese development efforts.
China has developed (copied with tech transfer) and manufactured plenty of Z-8 and H-6 before Z-18 and H-6K, the same cannot be said about the Blackhawk, so your analogy is inappropriate.

The Z-20 is not "an update to an existing platform", because AVIC doesn't have such existing platform. The Z-20 is not a domestic version of the S-70C in the sense that the original Z-8 was to SA321 or the original H-6 was to Tu-16, judging from even the blurry pictures the differences are quite obvious.

A better analogy is the Boeing 737. The Chinese government and PLA operates Boeing 737, but they don't have a "737 platform" to develop new models on. The C919 has similar overall configuration to the 737, but it is not developed from the 737, nor can we say that the C919's performance must be unimpressive because it looks like a Boeing platform developed 50 years ago.
 

Lethe

Captain
China has developed (copied with tech transfer) and manufactured plenty of Z-8 and H-6 before Z-18 and H-6K, the same cannot be said about the Blackhawk, so your analogy is inappropriate.

That is my point. The Z-18 and H-6K are fine platforms despite their elderly lineage because they are continuations of existing development and experience, i.e. it is resource efficient.

The Z-20 is a brand-new platform and the best China can come up with is a configuration from the 1970s. The Black Hawk platform is over 3.5m longer than NH90 (especially relevant to landing in LZs and operating from ships) and yet lacks the ramp access offered by that platform. It's an old design that has been superseded.

A better analogy is the Boeing 737. The Chinese government and PLA operates Boeing 737, but they don't have a "737 platform" to develop new models on. The C919 has similar overall configuration to the 737, but it is not developed from the 737, nor can we say that the C919's performance must be unimpressive because it looks like a Boeing platform developed 50 years ago.

Except that all these airliners look basically the same anyway. A better analogy would be if Y-20 as a clean-sheet aircraft happened to resemble Il-76. We would rightly say that it is out of step with modern design trends, as is Z-20.
 

superdog

Junior Member
That is my point. The Z-18 and H-6K are fine platforms despite their elderly lineage because they are continuations of existing development and experience, i.e. it is resource efficient.

The Z-20 is a brand-new platform and the best China can come up with is a configuration from the 1970s. The Black Hawk platform is over 3.5m longer than NH90 (especially relevant to landing in LZs and operating from ships) and yet lacks the ramp access offered by that platform. It's an old design that has been superseded.
Nope, according to spec sheets from NHI and Sikorsky, overall length of the Blackhawk is not 3.5m longer than the NH90, they are about the same with S-70 being 20cm longer. In terms of fuselage length (assuming folded blades), the NH90 is actually 90cm longer than the Blackhawk. The fuselage width of the NH90 is also 67cm wider than the Blackhawk, yet the Blackhawk is 30cm wider than the NH90 inside the cabin. NH90's cabin is 1m longer, but given that it has a 0.9m longer fuselage, that's not exactly a significant advantage in space use efficiency.

The NH90 has bigger cabin volume mainly because it is taller, but as I said earlier that means more structural weight and a larger side projection making it a bit more susceptible to crosswind. Cabin height is not that critical when not holding tall cargo pallets or ATV, so if those are not a requirement then having a lower profile is advantageous.

We don't know the inside and outside dimensions of the Z-20, nor the radius and center position of the main rotor etc., but with a shorter nose (more compact avionics) and refined aft cabin structure, there is no reason to believe that the Z-20's configuration must be worse than the NH-90 in terms of space use. Not to mention that raw carbin space is not the only factor, it's also about ease of access, adaptability to intended missions, total weight savings, how well are critical components being fitted and protected, etc. Blackhawk's general configuration has been tested extensively in hostile environments, but for the NH90 this is a big unknown.

As I've said earlier, having a tail ramp is not everything, it is not automatically better than having two larger side doors in all situations. The NH90's cargo versatility comes at a cost. This is not a comparison between two general layouts where one is superior to the other on every aspect, this is a comparison between two layouts that balance their capability attributes differently. The reasons you used to suggest otherwise are either inaccurate (about the length) or very limited (that a tricycle gear setup is better for frigate/destroyer based operation). In fact you can shorten the wheelbase like what Sikorsky did to Seahawk but you can't lengthen NH90's wheelbase to increase stability for land use. So I'm not convinced that the NH90 must be an overall better design to follow.

Except that all these airliners look basically the same anyway. A better analogy would be if Y-20 as a clean-sheet aircraft happened to resemble Il-76. We would rightly say that it is out of step with modern design trends, as is Z-20.
They look basically the same because they're being used for pretty much the same purpose. That shows you how half a century old layouts can still be a model for brand new platforms as long as you have similar requirements. The Y-20 looks more like C-17 than Il-76 precisely because the PLAAF wants it to serve roles closer to the C-17 than the Il-76. The C-17 was designed to be able carry current gen MBT and other heavy armor from the very beginning, it was exclusively military, where as the Il-76 was initially designed to be a commercial cargo plane/passenger combi that can operate at low grade airports, and could at most carry a T72, hence the narrower body. Again it is about the purpose, the user requirements, not the age.
 

foxmulder_ms

Junior Member
@Lethe You are writing like there has been a paradigm shift in general purpouse helicopter design.. What is so groundbreaking with NH90 compared to UH-60?? Is NH90 aerodynamically superior to UH-60? I hardly thing so. Having a ramp is really a no point about the "modernity" of an helicopter. Mi-17 had it much earlier than NH90...

The developments occurred in materials, engine, transmission and rotor fronts and you cannot comment on any of these by just looking at pictures.
 

MwRYum

Major
H-6 is an utterly obsolete design with not much more potential can be squeezed out of it, even with modern avionics and materials, the Chinese make H-6K out of it was more as a low-risk approach rather than there's still untapped potential in the Tu-16/H-6 design.

Z-20's linage with UH-60 is about the same as Hummvee got so widely copied, because the design is sound, still relevant today, eventhough its survivability against IED is piss-poor.

In any case, Z-20 seems to get more headway than the Z-15, which we still haven't heard the Harbin-built airframe made first flight yet. As such, we can rule out Z-15's future in military role, it's Z-20's turf now.
 
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