Yuan Class AIP & Kilo Submarine Thread

shen

Senior Member
Okay color me stupid, but arn't all modern subs double hulled? I mean there is the inner pressure hull here the crew lives then the outer hull which is used to contain all the parts open to the sea. The outer hull has the balest tanks the sonar the shaft for the propeller the conning tower and the shafts of the torpedo tubes.

All modern submarines have parts that are outside the pressure hull, including American SSN. The so called single hull subs should be more accurately called not fully enclosed pressure hull sub.

for example, double hull Kilo vs "single hull" Amur.

singlevsdoublehull.jpg
 

Jeff Head

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Okay color me stupid, but arn't all modern subs double hulled? I mean there is the inner pressure hull here the crew lives then the outer hull which is used to contain all the parts open to the sea. The outer hull has the balest tanks the sonar the shaft for the propeller the conning tower and the shafts of the torpedo tubes.
When speaking of double hulled boats, they are speaking of two pressure hulls.

Most all subs also have an outer hull that is not meant to be a pressure hull. The US builds a single pressure hull, using very high grade steel. The Russians and some others buold double hulls.

Even then, U.S. submarines do not have an outer hull around the entire boat. Normally the outer hull ais t the fore and aft and contains the ballast tanks.

As for why we build them without two pressure hulls...here are some thoughts.

The Russians subs were not very quiet...they expected that they would be found and they wanted to make them as survivable as possible. And against light weight topredoes, this would probably work for a time, it taking mulitple hits to sink them. But enven one good hit is going to make them even louder...and noise like that will mean a lot more torpedoes will be coming.

But...against an Mk-48 heavy weight, particularly the ADCAP version, double hulls would not save it.

The US was typically orders of magnitude quieter and did not ecxpect to be found. A submarines real survivability is dependant on its stealth and the US has sunk most of its R&D into that.

The double pressure hulls are very expensive, and they are a lot heavier. Weight requoires more power too. Russian subs are almost as expensive as US subs, but the money is generally spent in different ways. As the Russians have developed better quieting and electronics, their costs have risen accordingly.

Now lets talk about maintenance.

Two pressure hulls are more expensive to maintain. The more time a boat is at sea the more maintenance you have to do in port. Most submariners will work 100+ hours a week while in port on duty taking care of all the maintenance and training that happens in port. US Submariners many times get more sleep on patrol than at at home.

Add a second pressure hull and you increase the cost and time for maintenance...which invariably means less time at sea. Check out the deploymehnt schedules for US vs Russian and many other submarines.

Finally, lets talk consistancy. The US intends to build one design repeatedly ...ver and over. TThe Sea Wolf was not that way...but the LA Class certainly was, and the Virginia class will be too.

TheUSSR built a new class of subs every time someone had a new idea. We will see if the Russians can afford to continue that. My guess is, their numbers are going to be sparing when compared.

Two or three boats per class means huge logistical issues and a lot more training and maintenance. This is a huge advantage for the US in training and logistics. Rusian boats required many more custom parts for each boat, which meant customized training and operations. But an engineering sumbmariner that can start up the engineering plant on one LA Class boat, is going to be able to do the same on any of the dozens and dozens fo LA Class boats out there.

The US reactors are top notch and also built in large batches. The Russians and othewrs? Not so lucky. The USSR and Russia used diesels, pressurized water reactors, liquid metal reactors, sodium cooled reactors, etc. A logistics nightmare...and many of those designs, like the ALphas, were death traps from a radiation standpoint.

Now, we can come to the materials used in those hulls. The USSR and later now the Russians control a majority of the world’s titanium supply. Titanium is strong, so it can dive deeper...but it is also brittle and they were very expensive. That's not a good combination for submarine building, maintenance, and operation.

IMHO, the advantages of double hulls for the Russians and others do not outweigh the disadvantages...unless they can catch up with and pass the US/West in several areas:

1) Their quieting technology.
2) Their maintenance costs.
3) Their weapons capabilities.

On number 3. A lot is said about the Russian deployment of their super cavitiating torpedo. Yes...it is fast. but its has a very short range. That's why in my book series where supercavitatig torpedoes were an important part...the torpedoes were huge. Miniature subs themselves with dual proplusion...so they would have a decent range. And their closing sprint speed under supercavitation was like 400+ knots...not the much slower speed of the Russian weapon.

I personally would rather be in a US SSN, which is very, very quiet, and holding a brace of Mk-48 ADCAP torpedoes with a range of 45,000+ yards, and a closing speed in exccess of 50 knots, than on any Russian sub with one of their very dangerous supercavitators with a range of 7,500 yards.

Anyhow...sorry for the length...but you got me noodling the topic!
 

Blitzo

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I wonder why some western (and Japanese) SSKs have decided on double hulls, however?

The generally circulated idea was that double hulls were inferior in acoustics to single hulls, but I think oyashio and soryu are definitely some of the quietest submarines around, so is it plausible to say there's a degree of attribution error?
I.e.: all USSR submarines were double hull --> all USSR submarines were somewhat louder than western equivalents --> therefore double hull submarines are widely circulated to be louder? I think it's more reasonable to say that other quieting and noise reduction technologies are the big factor in noise reduction regardless of whether you are a single hull or double hulled sub?
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
think it's more reasonable to say that other quieting and noise reduction technologies are the big factor in noise reduction regardless of whether you are a single hull or double hulled sub?
That is exclty right.

Russian noise issues were not so much a part of the hull. Now, there are also design aspects and considertions in the hull that can lend quieting there. However, I believe that the Russian faired and molded hull designs ensure that that is not the issue.

Sonar absorbing coatings are another aspect.

But all machinary on a sub...all of it...has to be taken into account in the quieting. Nuclear engines have a lot of places that can be quieted, all of the pumps and comrpressors, and other machinary included. The US holds that tehnology very close.

We kow that the props make a huge difference, and sadly some of that tech got away from the west through Japan and espionage.

But every other piece of equipment is also included and the quieting practice and desiign for all of them are also closely held.

The Japoanese know this and apply it to their SSKs. I believe that the chinese realize it too and are applying it as well.
 

Blitzo

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That is exclty right.

Russian noise issues were not so much a part of the hull. Now, there are also design aspects and considertions in the hull that can lend quieting there. However, I believe that the Russian faired and molded hull designs ensure that that is not the issue.

Sonar absorbing coatings are another aspect.

But all machinary on a sub...all of it...has to be taken into account in the quieting. Nuclear engines have a lot of places that can be quieted, all of the pumps and comrpressors, and other machinary included. The US holds that tehnology very close.

We kow that the props make a huge difference, and sadly some of that tech got away from the west through Japan and espionage.

But every other piece of equipment is also included and the quieting practice and desiign for all of them are also closely held.

The Japoanese know this and apply it to their SSKs. I believe that the chinese realize it too and are applying it as well.

Yes, that's why I'm always a little skeptical when someone says a sub "looks" quiet. I mean, there are some hydrodynamic shapes that are more modern and would contribute to reducing noise, but I think the vast majority of the noise and noise reduction comes from inside.

For instance, 091 Han SSNs actually had quite a modern hull form but its insides were a mess, at least initially, which made it very noisy.
 

shen

Senior Member
Yes, that's why I'm always a little skeptical when someone says a sub "looks" quiet. I mean, there are some hydrodynamic shapes that are more modern and would contribute to reducing noise, but I think the vast majority of the noise and noise reduction comes from inside.

For instance, 091 Han SSNs actually had quite a modern hull form but its insides were a mess, at least initially, which made it very noisy.

The "looks" have more to do with drag reduction hence increased speed and acceleration more than acoustic performance I think. However the faster the submarine travels, the more hydrodynamic or flow noise dominant over machinery noise. The first SSN Nautilus for example, had such poorly shaped bow that when traveling at even moderate speed, the crew had trouble talking to each other in the torpedo room.

One of the reason why single hull subs are often said to be quieter than double hull subs is that the volume of the pressure hull is bigger in relation to surface area. Therefore single hull subs generally have more interior space for noise isolation equipments such as spring mounted machinery.
 
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ladioussupp

Junior Member
TAS on the Warlus class is an interesting story. Developed f"for," but not "woith," as I understand it.

Either way, the internal of the cable is going to run into the boat, either directly or via a connector to allow the information it is gathering to be passed to the systems within the boat.

X rudder Warlus with a clip-on TAS reminds me a pioneer diesel submarine, USS Albacore.

In 1961 and 1962, she was retrofitted with counter-rotating propellers and X rudders. And a clip-on TAS was added and tested later. However, I cannot find any photos about how the TAS attached to her.

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Thanks to modern electronics, information gathered from those transducers could be easily converted to digital signals and transmitted into the boat. But it always imposes tactical/maneuver limitations while deploying TAS. Experts may estimate such limitations easily by studying how TAS is attaching to boat.
 

tphuang

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There is no reason why Kilo is not as quiet as Oyashio or Soryu when running on batteries. Kilo's disadvantage is it has to snorkel periodically, running the diesel generators is noisy. Yuan of course has AIP, thus is much quieter operationally compare to the Kilo.

that just makes Yuan have greater endurance compared to kilo and many other DE subs. It doesn't make it quieter. Assuming of course that you would want to surface as infrequently as possible. But in terms of dimension, hull shaping, the diameter of inner hull, it's most comparable to Kilo. Now, the Type 032 looks a lot quieter than both, but it's a one off test sub.
 

Blitzo

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that just makes Yuan have greater endurance compared to kilo and many other DE subs. It doesn't make it quieter. Assuming of course that you would want to surface as infrequently as possible. But in terms of dimension, hull shaping, the diameter of inner hull, it's most comparable to Kilo. Now, the Type 032 looks a lot quieter than both, but it's a one off test sub.

I think we've agreed that external appearance doesn't mean much in determining a sub's acoustics
 

tphuang

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I think we've agreed that external appearance doesn't mean much in determining a sub's acoustics

I don't know where you got that from. It's clear looking at Yuan vs Song that Yuan's inner hull is wider and allows for more noise reduction measure to be installed. I don't know how you can say it doesn't mean much.
 
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