WW II Historical Thread, Discussion, Pics, Videos

chuck731

Banned Idiot
I think the German command, including Hitler, were aware that Z-plan was not quite compatible with the development of Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe. But if the conquest of European countries had been even more successful than it was and the High Command hadn't been afraid that the Soviet Union would have its new fighters in full production .

The German fighter programe intended to replace the Bf-109 was not pursued as hard as required to overcome its technical problems while Germany had the leisure and spare resources precisely because in 1940-1941, the war appeared to have gone so well that end is in sight, and existing fighters appear to have hitherto so served so well that they would seem to promise to remain adaquate for the little while longer the war would still last. So the best course for comcluding the war is to not disrupt production and continue producing existing designs.

by 1942 those Z-plan ships would have been well in time to protect the greater Germany. Quite likely the British and French government would have calculated similarly in 1939.

The core of Z-plan consist of 6 new battleships the earliest of which was laid down in middle of 1939. Even if the war from 1939-1941 did not disrupt its construction at all, normal pace of battleships construction require these ships to be launched no earlier than 1942 and not see service before late 1944 at the earliest. None of the lesser ships planned under Z-plan, as oppose to planned before Z-plan but incorporated into Z-plan, had yet started before the war. So almost none of the projected German warships that didn't actually see service in the real war could have seen service before middle of 1943 at the earliest, except the CV Graf Zeppelin and CA Seydlitz. The earliest Z-Plan could seriously effect the balance of power on the sea is 1944-1945.
 
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chuck731

Banned Idiot
Re: the merits of the T34, it is a good tank, it is one of my favorite tanks of WW2, but I won't say that it is one generation ahead of the german tanks it faced.

The german army was focused on two types of tanks, a battle tank and a support tank which was later supplemented by a breakthrough tank which was never used for a break through). The Panzer III was the battle tank and the Panzer IV was the support tank.

As such, the panzer III was designed with torsion bar suspension, great speed and agility; and a maximum performance of 5 hours/day; where as the support Panzer IV used leaf springs and smaller road wheels. There were delimiting factors that were fixed in subsequent models of the T34 such as poor situation awareness, overworked commander, No radio, insufficient turret armor, poor dispersion of the L11 gun, slow rate of fire for the L11 gun and so on.

To read into the tank production is also to understand the politics in Germany at the time. Herschel had a monopoly on turret design and Rheinmetall the gun. Rheinmetall had the 5cm L60 ready in 1937 which could penetrate the turret of a T34 to 1000m, and the upper front plate at 500m with regular ammunition. Yet, Herschel refused to fit the L60 into the turret and claim that it cant be done until Rheinmetall obtained one and fitted one in to prove a point.

This is also true for the 75mm L43, if you can fit a 75mm L24 into the turret, there is no reason why it cannot be done with the 75mm L43. The Pz III 's turret ring of 1530mm is smaller than the 1680mm on the Pz IV and is often quoted as the reason why the L43 cannot be mounted (L43, L48 use the same shell casing which is larger than the L24). But here is the thing, the Churchill with the 75mm gun had a turret ring size of 1394.225mm... Politics....

But anyhow, a T34/76 with the F34 can reliably kill a PzIII of 1942 at around 500m, A PzIII of the same era can kill a T34 at the same range... HE on the other hand... favors the larger barrel. A 75mm L43 armed PzIV can reliably kill a T34 out at 1000m, while the 75mm/48 to 1500m. Thus therefore, the soviets answered with the T34/85 with the D5T to reduce the German invulnerability zone. Given combat range is rarely over 700m and kills over 1500m makes the headlines... it is rather moot.

So my point is, the T34 is not that much more advanced than its peers and the Tiger is not really needed as an equalizer.


Any competently conceived tank should be built with the capacity for future expansion. So it is not a wonder that late versions of well conceived tank from a generation behind can be upgraded to come close to coping with early models of tanks one generation ahead. Even Sherman ultimately proved to be able to compete in some ways with tanks from T-54/55 generation. But they can not compete comprehensively. They also lack the potential to keep up with the later generation in future upgrades. You are comparing the early versions of T34/76 at the beginning of its lifecycle with the substantially evolved version of PzKfg IV or the most evolved version of PzKfg III at middle or late part of their respective life sysle. Comparing like for like would see T34/85 -1944 compared with PzKfg IV Ausf F or G, or PzKfg III Ausf J.
 
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Lezt

Junior Member
Any competently conceived tank should be built with the capacity for future expansion. So it is not a wonder that late versions of well conceived tank from a generation behind can be upgraded to come close to coping with early models of tanks one generation ahead. Even Sherman ultimately proved to be able to compete in some ways with tanks from T-54/55 generation. But they can not compete comprehensively. They also lack the potential to keep up with the later generation in future upgrades. You are comparing the early versions of T34/76 at the beginning of its lifecycle with the substantially evolved version of PzKfg IV or the most evolved version of PzKfg III at middle or late part of their respective life sysle. Comparing like for like would see T34/85 -1944 compared with PzKfg IV Ausf F or G, or PzKfg III Ausf J.


I was comparing tank of the same time period as you could have seen. The tank designs were of the same era as well. My statements holds true. I compared the:

But anyhow, a T34/76 with the F34 can reliably kill a PzIII of 1942 at around 500m, A PzIII of the same era can kill a T34 at the same range... HE on the other hand... favors the larger barrel. A 75mm L43 armed PzIV can reliably kill a T34 out at 1000m, while the 75mm/48 to 1500m. Thus therefore, the soviets answered with the T34/85 with the D5T to reduce the German invulnerability zone. Given combat range is rarely over 700m and kills over 1500m makes the headlines... it is rather moot.

T34/76 model 1940 - Pz3 Ausf G
T34/76 model 1941 - Pz3 Ausf H/K
T34/76 model 1942 - Pz4 Ausf F2
T34/85 model 1943 - Pz4 Ausf H

You will see that my statement is correct in terms of relative dates on the battlefield.


T34 family
A20: 1937 first prototype 20mm sloped armor, 45mm gun
A32: 1939 unarmored and upguned revised design after the battle of khalin gol, 32mm armor + 76.2mm L30.5 gun
A34: 1940; final prototype of T34, 45mm armor, 76.2mm L30.5mm gun
T34/76 model 1940 initial production of T34, 45mm armor, 76.2mm L30.5mm gun
T34/76 model 1941 uparmored turret 45mm to 52mm, upguned to 76.2mm L42.5
T34/76 model 1942 new hexigonal bigger turret with 70mm armor
T34/76 model 1943 production with radio
T34/85 model 1943 new 3 man turret with more armor 90mm, and upgun to 85mm L51.6
T34/85 model 1944 refinements...

PzIII family
Ausf A, B, C, D were small batch preproduction development models 1937-1939;
Ausf E, F first production model 1939-1940;
Ausf G,H upgunned to 50mm L42 and up armored 30+30 front plate 1940-1941;
Ausf J,K upguned to 50mm L60, armored to 50mm (50mm plate is stronger than 30+30mm plate) 1941-1942
Ausf L,M uparmored to 50+20mm and tweaking of design 1942-1943
Ausf N rearmed with 75mm L24 1942-1943

PzIV family
VK2001 1935 tender
Ausf A, B, C, D were small batch preproduction development models 1937-1939
Ausf E, first production model 1940-1941
Ausf F1 more armor 30mm->50mm, wider tracks 1941-1942
Ausf F2, G up gunned 75mm L43, and later up armored to 50+30mm armor L43 1942-1943
Ausf H, Up gunned to 75mm L48, armor to 80mm + 5mm skirt 1943-1944
Ausf J, last ditch model,

So I don't know where your idea of generation gap comes from, certainly nothing like the M4 and the T54. The Pz III, Pz IV and T34 basically entered service at the same time, left the drawing board at the same time and entered serial production at the same time. There is no generation gap and each is competitive with each other at the various phases of their life.

But this is relatively meaningless too, the T44 family => T44, T54, T55, T64, T72, T90 which is truly a redesign of each preceding tank with updated technologies can compete well with M26, M46, M47, M48, M60, M60-2000/Sabre family which is of the same era; and can compete more or less equally; depending your national sentiment; with the much newer Abrams, Leopard family which genesis comes ~30 years after the first T44 were produced. The lines are really blurred
 
The WW2 ended in Europe 69 years ago (well I know the so-called Third Reich had been capitulating for three days heheh, to the Western Allies on May 7, to the USSR on May 8 -- but due to some delays it was already after midnight in Moscow; that's what I was told in history classes about thirty years ago :) anyway, have a look:
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the brothers, Czech tank commanders photographed during WW2, now photographed at age of 91 and 89 ... in a today's newspaper article they talked about "how was it", just one story: the tank was hit and he was able to get out, so he ran away, but Soviet infantrymen (
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fought together with the Red Army) shouted at him: "Hey! You're on fire!" and he realized his hair and back were on fire ...
 

In4ser

Junior Member
WWII Instructional Video for US pilots on Flak Counter-measures
[video=youtube;qP_-WUMi-nw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP_-WUMi-nw#t=368[/video]
 

delft

Brigadier
It's dawn of September 1 in Central Europe right now ... and exactly three quarters of a century ago, the WW2 started here
It is somewhat Euro-centric to take this date and place. Better choose the Marco Polo bridge incident, July 7, 1937.
 

Janiz

Senior Member
It is somewhat Euro-centric to take this date and place. Better choose the Marco Polo bridge incident, July 7, 1937.
Nope. The World War II started September 1 1939. It's not Euro-centric. It's a fact.

It could have ended in a few weeks or maybe months if France had started the offensive on western Germany as they were sheduled around 20 September but a certain French general was so afraid of the chance to make a decissive blow on Germany and make France the biggest winner in the history of Europe that he chose a course which reulted in a 'phoney war'. I wonder if he could still sleep at night knowing how many people had died and what he did to his own country which lost in a war against Germany just one year later...
 
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