Why Chinese Mothers are Superior...

solarz · Jan 19, 2011

AssassinsMace said:
Who's method creates innovative well behaved or caring ones? Like I mentioned before it's pretty hypocritical to point of suicide among children when there's suicides by children in the countries that criticize her techniques. Again is it different because those kids have a good reason to commit suicide? So who has it right? Is this like how the US supports good dictators while China supports bad dictators. Let's examine failure by who has children that go on shooting sprees killing their classmates. Shall we point out more cultural differences?

When people are confronted by new ideas, they tend to fall back on old pre-conceptions. The idea that a child who spends too much time working/learning and not enough playing will turn out to be socially inept/uncreative/mentally unstable is not founded on any facts.

Note that I'm not supporting an "all work, no play" childhood, I'm just saying that people shouldn't keep bringing up the same fallacies.

AssassinsMace · Jan 19, 2011

solarz said:
When people are confronted by new ideas, they tend to fall back on old pre-conceptions. The idea that a child who spends too much time working/learning and not enough playing will turn out to be socially inept/uncreative/mentally unstable is not founded on any facts.

Note that I'm not supporting an "all work, no play" childhood, I'm just saying that people shouldn't keep bringing up the same fallacies.

I agree.

This woman and her critics are all idiots because none of them know what's right for someone else's children. David Brooks makes it sound like Chua fired the first shot. No, as with everything the West criticizes how Asian children are raised as if they know what's best. Like we haven't heard the hypocrisy pointing to suicide among children before? I know someone who has a son who he and his wife tried the reason method to him with his spoiled bad behavior. It doesn't work. This kid is demanding his father buy him a real gun for his birthday freely admitting so he can shoot his sister just because they're fighting over who gets to play the Playstation 3. And then soon after I see on the news a son shoots his mother in the back of the head killing her just because she told him to take out the garbage. Next we'll hear is that strict discipline child rearing causes violent behavior in children.

advill · Jan 19, 2011

There are definitely cultural differences - including good and the bad ones in any culture. However, cultural arrogance by any race or nationality should not be tolerared. Learning is a process whereby we can selectively learn the good things from anyone. That's why for many years, Asian students have gone & still continue to study in US and European Universities. The same is gradually happening with Western students going to China, India and Japan and other Asian countries. Cross-cultural understanding is important in business as well as country relationships.

airsuperiority · Jan 19, 2011

solarz said:
That's just bull. It takes a lot more work to become an accomplished musician (or accomplished *anything*) than to learn to socialize.

The author of this article is being quite liberal with facts when he tries to suggest that "growing up" is more difficult than perfecting a skill. For one thing, the two are not mutually exclusive, as any olympic athlete can tell you.

No one seems to be claiming that Tara Lipinski or Shawn Johnson are socially inept, when I can pretty much guarantee that those two have an even more grueling training regimen than the Chua girls.

Actually as Psychology major, I'd say that both fluid and crystalized intelligence are different. Socialization and cognitive, sensory training(music) may share correlations in some ways, but otherwise, 2 different areas. It's such a terrible example to give some bullshit about "status rivalries" vs piano training. Both are very different by nature. Man, the writer failed even the most basics of critical thinking

airsuperiority · Jan 19, 2011

AssassinsMace said:
I agree.

This woman and her critics are all idiots because none of them know what's right for someone else's children. David Brooks makes it sound like Chua fired the first shot. No, as with everything the West criticizes how Asian children are raised as if they know what's best. Like we haven't heard the hypocrisy pointing to suicide among children before? I know someone who has a son who he and his wife tried the reason method to him with his spoiled bad behavior. It doesn't work. This kid is demanding his father buy him a real gun for his birthday freely admitting so he can shoot his sister just because they're fighting over who gets to play the Playstation 3. And then soon after I see on the news a son shoots his mother in the back of the head killing her just because she told him to take out the garbage. Next we'll hear is that strict discipline child rearing causes violent behavior in children.

Further add to the point, EQ(not standardized by APA if I'm correct), still requires the basics of intelligence. Intelligence measures a lot on cognitive abilities, which would pave way to certain variables of EQ, because cognitive includes the basics of managing information in our minds.

Furthermore, IQ is measured based on comparing the scores of the individual vs his/her age group. This is how IQ results were read. An individual with higher IQ and cognitive abilities, generally can produce better problem solving skills that cope with the environment and situations. Intelligence and cognitive abilities are the basis of our minds. Even for Behavioral Psychology and Developmental Psychology, where conditioning and socialization are important, Biological and Cognitive Psychology suggest that cognitive abilities are still the basis of more complex behavior. Therefore I'd say that the argument that sleepover is more important than piano training, is weak(probably invalid too) due to failed use of relevant examples, but also a terrible argument because the connections tried to draw were irrelevant and invalid.

Spartan95 · Jan 19, 2011

Seems that what the media carried has created a bit of a storm amongst the Internet community, with even death threats made to Dr Amy Chua. However, it seems that the original article that started it all was the most sensational portion of Dr Amy Chua's book, which why was it was carried by the media.

Here's her response:

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The Tiger Mother Talks Back
Amy Chua responds to readers' questions about happiness, relationships and tips for teaching toddlers
JANUARY 15, 2011

Q. Do you think that strict, "Eastern" parenting eventually helps children lead happy lives as adults?

A. When it works well, absolutely! And by working well, I mean when high expectations are coupled with love, understanding and parental involvement. This is the gift my parents gave me, and what I hope I'm giving my daughters. I've also taught law students of all backgrounds for 17 years, and I've met countless students raised the "tough immigrant" way (by parents from Pakistan, India, Nigeria, Korea, Jamaica, Haiti, Iran, Ireland, etc.) who are thriving, independent, bold, creative, hilarious and, at least to my eyes, as happy as anyone. But I also know of people raised with "tough love" who are not happy and who resent their parents. There is no easy formula for parenting, no right approach (I don't believe, by the way, that Chinese parenting is superior—a splashy headline, but I didn't choose it). The best rule of thumb I can think of is that love, compassion and knowing your child have to come first, whatever culture you're from. It doesn't come through in the excerpt, but my actual book is not a how-to guide; it's a memoir, the story of our family's journey in two cultures, and my own eventual transformation as a mother. Much of the book is about my decision to retreat from the strict "Chinese" approach, after my younger daughter rebelled at 13.

Q. I have a 20-month-old, and my husband and I both enjoyed the article. How can you apply this to toddlers?

A. We didn't actually do anything that different when my daughters were toddlers, just the same kinds of things that you probably do already: read picture books with them, took them for strolls and to the playground, did puzzles with them, sang songs about ABCs and numbers and mainly snuggled with and hugged them! Maybe the only thing different I did is that I always had a babysitter or student speaking in Mandarin to them every day, for at least four to five hours, including weekends, because I wanted my girls to be bilingual. (I wanted my daughters to learn from native Mandarin speakers, because my own native Chinese dialect is Fujianese [Hokkien], and my Mandarin accent is terrible.)

Q. Your method may work with children with a native high IQ—but demanding that kind of excellence from less intelligent children seems unfair and a fool's errand. Demanding hard work and a great effort from children is the best middle ground we can reach philosophically, isn't it? Your thoughts?

A. Jokes about A+s and gold medals aside (much of my book is tongue-in-cheek, making fun of myself), I don't believe that grades or achievement is ultimately what Chinese parenting (at least as I practice it) is really about. I think it's about helping your children be the best they can be—which is usually better than they think! It's about believing in your child more than anyone else—even more than they believe in themselves. And this principle can be applied to any child, of any level of ability. My youngest sister, Cindy, has Down syndrome, and I remember my mother spending hours and hours with her, teaching her to tie her shoelaces on her own, drilling multiplication tables with Cindy, practicing piano every day with her. No one expected Cindy to get a Ph.D.! But my mom wanted her to be the best she could be, within her limits. Today, my sister works at Wal-Mart, has a boyfriend and still plays piano—one of her favorite things is performing for her friends. She and my mom have a wonderful relationship, and we all love her for who she is.

Q. Ms. Chua, are you a happy adult? Do you look back on your childhood and feel that it was happy? Do you remember laughing with your parents? Do you wish that you could have taken ballet or been in the high-school musical?

A. I was raised by extremely strict—but also extremely loving—Chinese immigrant parents, and I had the most wonderful childhood! I remember laughing constantly with my parents—my dad is a real character and very funny. I certainly did wish they allowed to me do more things! I remember often thinking, "Why is it such a big deal for me to go to a school dance," or "Why can't I go on the school ski trip?" But on the other hand, I had great times with my family (and even today, it's one of my favorite things to vacation with my parents and sisters). As I write in my book, "When my friends hear stories about when I was little, they often imagine that I had a horrible childhood. But that's not true at all; I found strength and confidence in my peculiar family. We started off as outsiders together, and we discovered America together, becoming Americans in the process. I remember my father working until three in the morning every night, so driven he wouldn't even notice us entering the room. But I also remember how excited he was introducing us to tacos, sloppy joes, Dairy Queen and eat-all-you-can buffets, not to mention sledding, skiing, crabbing and camping. I remember a boy in grade school making slanty-eyed gestures at me, guffawing as he mimicked the way I pronounced 'restaurant' (rest-OW-rant)—I vowed at that moment to rid myself of my Chinese accent. But I also remember Girl Scouts and hula hoops; poetry contests and public libraries; winning a Daughters of the American Revolution essay contest; and the proud, momentous day my parents were naturalized."

And yes, I am a happy adult. I am definitely a Type A personality, always rushing around, trying to do too much, not good at just lying on the beach. But I'm so thankful for everything I have: wonderfully supportive parents and sisters, the best husband in the world, terrific students I love teaching and hanging out with, and above all, my two amazing daughters.

Q. What is your relationship with your daughters like now?

A. I have a wonderful relationship with my daughters, which I wouldn't trade for the world. I certainly made mistakes and have regrets—my book is a kind of coming-of-age book (for the mom!), and the person at the beginning of the book, whose voice is reflected in the Journal excerpt, is not exactly the same person at the end of book. In a nutshell, I get my comeuppance; much of the book is about my decision to retreat (but only partially) from the strict immigrant model.

Having said that, if I had to do it all over, I would do basically the same thing, with some adjustments. I'm not saying it's for everyone, and I'm not saying it's a better approach. But I'm very proud of my daughters. It's not just that they've done well in school; they are both kind, generous, independent girls with big personalities. Most important, I feel I'm very close with both of them, knock on wood.

Talk about misrepresentation by the media.

bladerunner · Jan 19, 2011

solarz said:
So no, suicide due to scholastic pressure isn't that much of an issue.

Firstly I think A Mace is getting his knickers in a twist. No one including my self raised the topic of youth suicide with the intention of racial point scoring. The topic is too tragic to sink to those levels.
However I disagree with you that youth suicide from scholastic pressure is a fallacy.
I have several reasons to believe why this is so..

1/Firstly a cousin of mine who is a psychologist by profession at John Hopkins Hospital (studying the grieving process as a result of death of a loved one, mentioned it to me after she had spent years living/ studying in Japan.

2/For some time now in Nz we have a "mental illness awareness week" and info concerning youth suicide is made available or discussed on radio.

3/ WE live on a lifestyle style block which boarded on a river and there were many activities we could indulge in. I never forced all this stuff that Chua did on hers, however they were taught about the benefits of good study habits, and being academically capable, they coped very well, in a laid back enviroment
Last year a Korean High school student friend of my sons did just that.( commit suicide,he was halfway through med school) His parents allowed him to come around for group studies etc, and over the school yrs as I got to know the kid , I formed the impression that his parents were very much like the author of the book and coming around to my place was a welcome break for him as there were long breaks between periods of study which my sons friend enjoyed very much. (boating on the river, horse riding etc)

Sometimes I wonder whether these things aren't openly discussed in Asian circles because of the complexities of their society results in the subject being kicked under the table.

Anyway I found a piece on youth suicide in Japan and am rather puzzled why you don't think its an issue in Chinese society. I wonder if its just kicked under the table. It would be a pity if it was because China with its one child policy I think the tragedy would be immensely greater for the parent.

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Academic pressure and impact on Japanese students
McGill Journal of Education, Winter 2000 by Steve Bossy

Some students concede failure even before the entrance examination and chose what they believe to be their only alternative. One eighteen-year-old boy wrote:
I thank you for taking care of me for a long time. I have been in a slump the past month and did not study. I don't know why, but I am not in the mood to study. It is impossible in this condition to pass the entrance examination, which is coming in about a month. I gave up hope of passing the examination. I give up. I have decided to die. (Iga, 1986, p. 39)
The Japanese youth suicide rate is a tragic problem. Considering the long lasting emotional scars on victims of bullying and the psychological impact on students who fail the university entrance examination or who end up at a lowly ranked university as a result of their performance, data on young adults between 15 and 24 years old is certainly pertinent. In 1991, 1,333 cases of suicide fell into this age group (Japan Statistical Yearbook, 1993/94). The suicide rate for this age group in 1993 was 10 per 100,000 (WHO, 1994). Current data reveal that suicide among Japanese children is on the rise (Japan Times, Nov. 27-Dec. 3, 1999).
Police said July 1 that the number of suicides surged 35 percent in 1998 to a record high 32,863, surpassing 30,000 for the first time. The total included 12 elementary school kids, up from 12 the previous year; 102 junior high school students, up 40; and 220 high school students, an increase of 51.
The status difference among top-ranked universities is enough to cause students to commit suicide. A paragraph from a suicide note written by a Kyoto university student reads:
The only significance of life is to enter Tokyo University, which is the best in Japan. When I entered Kyoto University, students and professors here looked so inferior to those in Tokyo. The fact that I
entered this university worsened my nervous condition, contrary to my mother's expectations. I could not be proud of being a student here. (Iga, 1986, p. 41)............

airsuperiority · Jan 19, 2011

Spartan95 said:
Seems that what the media carried has created a bit of a storm amongst the Internet community, with even death threats made to Dr Amy Chua. However, it seems that the original article that started it all was the most sensational portion of Dr Amy Chua's book, which why was it was carried by the media.

Here's her response:

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Talk about misrepresentation by the media.

When did the Western media ever get anything right anyways? It's just a matter of die they got blood on their hands due to their ethicless journalism.

Oh I also want to point out that intelligence can be trained. So to be smart requires hard work, not just what the person is naturally capable of. If 2 kids started out with the same IQ score, the one who received more training will score higher next time. This is because his/her abilities were trained, and some of his/her potentials were enhanced. Fact: A full time student's brain region for learning is enlarged throughout the semester, but will shrink back to normal size months into vacation.

AssassinsMace · Jan 19, 2011

bladerunner said:
Firstly I think A Mace is getting his knickers in a twist. No one including my self raised the topic of youth suicide with the intention of racial point scoring. The topic is too tragic to sink to those levels.
However I disagree with you that youth suicide from scholastic pressure is a fallacy.
I have several reasons to believe why this is so..

1/Firstly a cousin of mine who is a psychologist by profession at John Hopkins Hospital (studying the grieving process as a result of death of a loved one, mentioned it to me after she had spent years living/ studying in Japan.

2/For some time now in Nz we have a "mental illness awareness week" and info concerning youth suicide is made available or discussed on radio.

3/ WE live on a lifestyle style block which boarded on a river and there were many activities we could indulge in. I never forced all this stuff that Chua did on hers, however they were taught about the benefits of good study habits, and being academically capable, they coped very well, in a laid back enviroment
Last year a Korean High school student friend of my sons did just that.( commit suicide,he was halfway through med school) His parents allowed him to come around for group studies etc, and over the school yrs as I got to know the kid , I formed the impression that his parents were very much like the author of the book and coming around to my place was a welcome break for him as there were long breaks between periods of study which my sons friend enjoyed very much. (boating on the river, horse riding etc)

Sometimes I wonder whether these things aren't openly discussed in Asian circles because of the complexities of their society results in the subject being kicked under the table.

Anyway I found a piece on youth suicide in Japan and am rather puzzled why you don't think its an issue in Chinese society. I wonder if its just kicked under the table. It would be a pity if it was because China with its one child policy I think the tragedy would be immensely greater for the parent.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Academic pressure and impact on Japanese students
McGill Journal of Education, Winter 2000 by Steve Bossy

Some students concede failure even before the entrance examination and chose what they believe to be their only alternative. One eighteen-year-old boy wrote:
I thank you for taking care of me for a long time. I have been in a slump the past month and did not study. I don't know why, but I am not in the mood to study. It is impossible in this condition to pass the entrance examination, which is coming in about a month. I gave up hope of passing the examination. I give up. I have decided to die. (Iga, 1986, p. 39)
The Japanese youth suicide rate is a tragic problem. Considering the long lasting emotional scars on victims of bullying and the psychological impact on students who fail the university entrance examination or who end up at a lowly ranked university as a result of their performance, data on young adults between 15 and 24 years old is certainly pertinent. In 1991, 1,333 cases of suicide fell into this age group (Japan Statistical Yearbook, 1993/94). The suicide rate for this age group in 1993 was 10 per 100,000 (WHO, 1994). Current data reveal that suicide among Japanese children is on the rise (Japan Times, Nov. 27-Dec. 3, 1999).
Police said July 1 that the number of suicides surged 35 percent in 1998 to a record high 32,863, surpassing 30,000 for the first time. The total included 12 elementary school kids, up from 12 the previous year; 102 junior high school students, up 40; and 220 high school students, an increase of 51.
The status difference among top-ranked universities is enough to cause students to commit suicide. A paragraph from a suicide note written by a Kyoto university student reads:
The only significance of life is to enter Tokyo University, which is the best in Japan. When I entered Kyoto University, students and professors here looked so inferior to those in Tokyo. The fact that I
entered this university worsened my nervous condition, contrary to my mother's expectations. I could not be proud of being a student here. (Iga, 1986, p. 41)............

You're sadly mistaken. I love these moments to hand the hypocrites their lunch. You can show all your studies and figures you want. It doesn't lessen the fact that children and teenagers in the West commmit suicide. It wouldn't be a news story frequently if it wasn't that serious. Ghoulish enough to think that's different and somehow not as serious that Western young people commit suicide? Western young people have lesser pressure yet they commit suicide anyway. Hmmmm. Notice you can only point to the Western utopia ally of Japan not China?

I remember in Berkeley years ago where some teenagers were destroying private and public property with their skate boarding. They were confronted and these kids thought their rights were being violated because people wanted to deny them the right to hone their skate boarding skills at other people's expense. This is peace and love Berkeley, California where they teach their kids right.

A couple years ago in my old neighborhood, some "brought-up right better than China" kids violently gang-raped a girl behind a high school during the school prom and people watched and did nothing.

I've got more for the the high-and-mighty that judge.

bd popeye · Jan 19, 2011

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You fellows are getting way off topic and much to serious. Plus I see several rules violations.. so in order to maintain forum decorum this thread is locked until a time of my choosing.

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bd popeye super moderator

Why Chinese Mothers are Superior...

solarz

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