What the Heck?! Thread (Closed)

[Equation]

This article shows just how out of touch with reality so-called "China experts" in the West are:

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They see a discrepancy in official statistics and automatically assume the Chinese are killing or aborting their female infants. These false assumptions are then passed on as "facts" by the western media, and repeated so many times that the western public believe it for truth.

This is the same sloppy methodology that led to claims that Mao killed 30-80 million people.

The discrepancy about Mao's China and the CPC is even woefully exaggerated in religious institutions. In other words ALL forms of Communism are bad. We have "god" therefore we are the good guys is the narrative that's controlling the masses mindset.

 

[Blackstone]

Talk is cheap and neocons like Bolton have nothing left but hot air. However, this is one case where I actually agree with the warmongering idiot (even a broken clock is right twice a day). The PRC doesn't tell America who we can speak with. The reverse, of course, is also true.

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Former US Ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton said President-elect Donald Trump should 'shake up' the relationship between America and China.

Bolton responded to the news of a phone call between Trump and Taiwanese President Tsai Ing-wen, which caused China

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with the US through its foreign ministry.

"Honestly, I think we should shake the relationship up. For the past several years China has made aggressive... belligerent claims in the South China Sea," he said on Fox & Friends.

Beijing views Taiwan as a rebel province of mainland China, and the United States has recognized China's claim since President Jimmy Carter officially acknowledged the "one China" policy in 1979.

Therefore, Trump's discussion with Tsai has been seen by some as a breach of protocol, but Bolton disagreed:

"Nobody in Beijing gets to dictate who we talk to. It's ridiculous to think that the phone call upsets decades of anything."

He noted Taiwan, with a population of 20 million, has a democratic government, a free press and a free-market economic system.

 

[taxiya]

Talk is cheap and neocons like Bolton have nothing left but hot air. However, this is one case where I actually agree with the warmongering idiot (even a broken clock is right twice a day). The PRC doesn't tell America who we can speak with. The reverse, of course, is also true.

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Strictly speaking, Bolton is shooting at the wrong target. And you are agreeing with him on a wrong premise (the right word?).

1. China complained to U.S. government, not Trump. China did not tell Trump what to do, neither does China have the right to tell him that as he is right now just a citizen of U.S. who is not bound by U.S. diplomatic commitment.

2. China does have the right to demand (dictate if one choose the word one prefer) U.S. to full-fill her treaty obligation which does not recognize Taiwan as a sovereign state, nor its leader as a President which implies sovereignty. This demand/dictation applies to anyone who sit in the white house, Obama and Trump (after January 20th, 2017) included.

When Bolton made the complaint, he apparently mistaken the word America (U.S.A the state) for an American (an individual citizen of U.S.A). A mistake he should not have made based on his duty as the ambassador to the UN. And I don't believe for a second that he forgot these basic concepts.

For Bolton's words to fully comply both international law and U.S. diplomatic commitment, he should have said "PRC doesn't tell an American commoner who he/she can speak with".

And by the same logic, China would not bother to tell Bolton who he choose to speak with, nor would China care what he says, a nobody, so long as he stay out of the white house or any government office.

 

[AssassinsMace]

The US tells people what to do all the time. Pretty hypocritical. Trump's henchmen are going TV to spin this in Trump's favor. That means Trump is living up to what people think of him that he's ignorant of world affairs and didn't know about the One-China policy. Like it's being said by critics... it's not like Trump's phone rang and he just picked it up and it happened to be the President of Taiwan on the phone. These calls are arranged and someone in the White House let it through to Trump knowing full-well the implications. This is going to be a case of real power sitting behind the throne because the fact is this king only knows about the world from the media that he lambasts as liars.

 

[plawolf]

This is actually a good example of why I always thought Trump might prove to be more effective at international relations than what many people would think.

No one, maybe not even Trump himself, can actually tell if he meant to poke China in the eye, or if he honestly didn't realise what he was doing.

I know that traditionally you have minders micromanaging everything, but Trump is known as a control freak, so it is entirely possible he insisted on being kept in on the loop on things most conventional politicians would leave to their handlers to handle, and made the decision himself, and no one on his team had the balls and/or pull to walk him back off the ledge.

That is a theme we had seen time and again during his election campaign, and it has usually worked out for him, so it's only natural to assume he will continue with that habit.

The astute amongst you will see a whole host of problems and dangers with running foreign policy like that, but as the election results shows, it is not without its advantages. The chief of which is that opponents never really know how to best react.

If you over-react, you risk pushing Trump into a corner where his ego makes him feel he has to double down even if he knows he is wrong.

But Trump is also a classic bully. He only respects strength, that is why he is so 'soft' on Putin's Russia.

Problem is that bullies also have an instinctive need to find victims to pick on to reaffirm their 'superiority' to those watching, but mostly himself, and don't know when to back off. If you give them an inch, they will want a yard next time. So if you under-react, you risk making Trump think you are an easy target and try to fleece you for all you have got.

I think Trump will be surprisingly effective with his brand of pure bonkers unpredictability and sheer thuggish shamelessness at bullying small and medium power countries into give unfair concessions.

However, it is when he tries his luck with major league powers like China and Russia that the flip side of his side really stand starkly out.

If he picks on say Mexico, there is a lot of injustice, but little risk, as Mexico simply have no chance to stand up against America. If America under Trump is prepared to throw their self respect and values out the window and go full thug, Mexico will have little choice but to pony up whatever Trump demands.

Problem with trying that stunt with China or Russia is that both can and will stand up for themselves if they are pushed far enough.

So far, China has chosen to give Trump the benefit of the doubt, and lay the full blame for this at the door of Taiwan.

I would expect America to suffer little blow back from this, but I would expect China to make Taiwan pay a price for this, as much to show Trump China is no easy target as to punish Taiwan for orchestrating this stunt.

I would expect China to follow the timeless Chinese strategy of 'killing the chicken to scare the monkey' in response to this.

The aim would be to show Trump that it's unwise to mess with China without risking upsetting his ego, which might make him dig his heels in.

Whether that would be a good strategy, only time will tell.

 

[Blackstone]

Strictly speaking, Bolton is shooting at the wrong target. And you are agreeing with him on a wrong premise (the right word?).

1. China complained to U.S. government, not Trump. China did not tell Trump what to do, neither does China have the right to tell him that as he is right now just a citizen of U.S. who is not bound by U.S. diplomatic commitment.

2. China does have the right to demand (dictate if one choose the word one prefer) U.S. to full-fill her treaty obligation which does not recognize Taiwan as a sovereign state, nor its leader as a President which implies sovereignty. This demand/dictation applies to anyone who sit in the white house, Obama and Trump (after January 20th, 2017) included.

When Bolton made the complaint, he apparently mistaken the word America (U.S.A the state) for an American (an individual citizen of U.S.A). A mistake he should not have made based on his duty as the ambassador to the UN. And I don't believe for a second that he forgot these basic concepts.

For Bolton's words to fully comply both international law and U.S. diplomatic commitment, he should have said "PRC doesn't tell an American commoner who he/she can speak with".

And by the same logic, China would not bother to tell Bolton who he choose to speak with, nor would China care what he says, a nobody, so long as he stay out of the white house or any government office.

We could skip all your finer points by getting to the bottom line, which is neoconservatives like Bolton use sledgehammers to kill flies. There's little finesse to the Boltons of American politics. I got to admit, however, it was great when no one else had sledgehammers. But, now that the caveman method has produced failures after failures all over the globe, it might be time to mix in a bit of diplomacy with the blunderbuss. My worry is neocons/libs instinctively think they are one and the same.

 

[taxiya]

This is actually a good example of why I always thought Trump might prove to be more effective at international relations than what many people would think.

No one, maybe not even Trump himself, can actually tell if he meant to poke China in the eye, or if he honestly didn't realise what he was doing.

I know that traditionally you have minders micromanaging everything, but Trump is known as a control freak, so it is entirely possible he insisted on being kept in on the loop on things most conventional politicians would leave to their handlers to handle, and made the decision himself, and no one on his team had the balls and/or pull to walk him back off the ledge.

That is a theme we had seen time and again during his election campaign, and it has usually worked out for him, so it's only natural to assume he will continue with that habit.

The astute amongst you will see a whole host of problems and dangers with running foreign policy like that, but as the election results shows, it is not without its advantages. The chief of which is that opponents never really know how to best react.

If you over-react, you risk pushing Trump into a corner where his ego makes him feel he has to double down even if he knows he is wrong.

But Trump is also a classic bully. He only respects strength, that is why he is so 'soft' on Putin's Russia.

Problem is that bullies also have an instinctive need to find victims to pick on to reaffirm their 'superiority' to those watching, but mostly himself, and don't know when to back off. If you give them an inch, they will want a yard next time. So if you under-react, you risk making Trump think you are an easy target and try to fleece you for all you have got.

I think Trump will be surprisingly effective with his brand of pure bonkers unpredictability and sheer thuggish shamelessness at bullying small and medium power countries into give unfair concessions.

However, it is when he tries his luck with major league powers like China and Russia that the flip side of his side really stand starkly out.

If he picks on say Mexico, there is a lot of injustice, but little risk, as Mexico simply have no chance to stand up against America. If America under Trump is prepared to throw their self respect and values out the window and go full thug, Mexico will have little choice but to pony up whatever Trump demands.

Problem with trying that stunt with China or Russia is that both can and will stand up for themselves if they are pushed far enough.

So far, China has chosen to give Trump the benefit of the doubt, and lay the full blame for this at the door of Taiwan.

I would expect America to suffer little blow back from this, but I would expect China to make Taiwan pay a price for this, as much to show Trump China is no easy target as to punish Taiwan for orchestrating this stunt.

I would expect China to follow the timeless Chinese strategy of 'killing the chicken to scare the monkey' in response to this.

The aim would be to show Trump that it's unwise to mess with China without risking upsetting his ego, which might make him dig his heels in.

Whether that would be a good strategy, only time will tell.

You said what I have been thinking since the stunt. "beating the dog to show the master" is another old saying.

I am thinking that some of Taiwan's diplomatic allies may jump boat if 1. this kind of stunt happens again or 2. if "president" Cai hold the demand of "one-China policy" for too long.

It is well known one country in central America has asked to jump boat for years only denied by PRC for the sake of KMT "president" Ma.

 

[taxiya]

We could skip all your finer points by getting to the bottom line, which is neoconservatives like Bolton use sledgehammers to kill flies. There's little finesse to the Boltons of American politics. I got to admit, however, it was great when no one else had sledgehammers. But, now that the caveman method has produced failures after failures all over the globe, it might be time to mix in a bit of diplomacy with the blunderbuss. My worry is neocons/libs instinctively think they are one and the same.

I am more optimistic than you. The bottom line is everybody even the caveman knows the pain of being hit by a hammer and everybody including a gentleman has his own hammer. Common sense will prevail even Trump has it as far as I can tell just like playwolf pointed out in #2225. Otherwise the world is in deep trouble.

 

[AssassinsMace]

The US tells people what to do all the time. Pretty hypocritical. Trump's henchmen are going TV to spin this in Trump's favor. That means Trump is living up to what people think of him that he's ignorant of world affairs and didn't know about the One-China policy. Like it's being said by critics... it's not like Trump's phone rang and he just picked it up and it happened to be the President of Taiwan on the phone. These calls are arranged and someone in the White House let it through to Trump knowing full-well the implications. This is going to be a case of real power sitting behind the throne because the fact is this king only knows about the world from the media that he lambasts as liars.

Pardon not White House but Trump's inner circle.

This is actually a good example of why I always thought Trump might prove to be more effective at international relations than what many people would think.

The reason why I don't think Trump knew what he was doing is his first tweet after the controversy which was he didn't own it. He played it down.

 

[delft]

And in the past, western civilization also imported a lot from the east or south, Christianity was surely a foreign one from Asia, but now it is widely a western thing.

Even democracy was imported from the Muslims together with the University and academic freedom. The first Western universities derived their structure and way of government from the Muslim law schools according to a Dutch book I'm just now reading again. ( Vergeten erfenis - Oosterse wortels van de westerse cultuur Author: Jona Lendering, ISBN 978 90 253 6404 5 ).