What the Heck?! Thread (Closed)

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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Per that overview article Apple claims that it doesn't store any keys, it can be lying through its teeth and nobody would be any the wiser. The article also states that there is no way to guarantee that Apple is incapable of accessing the encrypted data other than taking their word at face value.

The FBI is asking Apple to do the FBI's work for them. Apple is not saying it cannot do it, Apple is saying it doesn't want to do it. This is not about protecting end users' privacy, this is about protecting Apple's marketing, specifically putting it before human lives and national security.

The FBI should go ahead on its own to crack Apple's security while the lawsuits play out, most likely being forced to spend way more resources than if Apple co-operated, and hold Apple and its employees such as Tim Cook liable for obstruction of justice and aiding and abetting terrorists if timely intelligence was missed due to Apple's unco-operative behavior.
You are joking, right? You obviously must take Apple's word at face value unless you can prove that they are lying; the burden of proof is on the FBI, not Apple. You can't prove that you don't have something (especially if it's digital). What kind of logic is that, that since there's no proof that they don't have the keys, thus they should be responsible for giving them up? That's not any logic that will stand in any court. How about the FBI arrest you and tell you that since there's no proof that you don't know where ISIS' headquarters is, you have 24 hours to tell them or be arrested as a terrorist? That the FBI is asking Apple to do the FBI's work is exactly right, and in a country like the US, no one is obligated to do the FBI's work for them. It's not a criminal offense that you can charge them with aiding terrorists or obstructing justice for. Do you know anything about the law? It'd be like going to the parents of a suspect and telling them that if they don't find their son in 24 hours, they're obstructing justice. It is the FBI's job to find them and no one else's just like it is the FBI's job to crack this phone, and no one else's.
 
So what? So assume that they do have the ability and force them to give it up? What if the assumption's wrong, and you end up trying to force someone to give up something they don't have? Do you normally assume that things exist if no one can verify that it doesn't? Does Harry Potter exist?

"That is a nonsense double standard. If Apple can afford to keep the secret of how it builds its unbreakable iPhone security then they can equally afford to keep the secret of how they break it."

Why should Apple bear the undue burden of creating something that destroys the security of what it depends on for survival, and then the additional burden of having to keep it secure? I'd rather the thing that can destroy me not exist at all (much less force me to create it) than to have me keep it in the closet. Because Apple kept 1 thing secure, so it should have the burden of keeping everything secure? Why don't we all give our data to Apple and have them guard it just because they can?

All I am pointing out is that Apple's word is being taken at face value and given a free pass when it is in the position to potentially be able to access data on their phones and not be found out.

Why should the rest of the world bear the burden of Apple providing shelter for terrorists and criminals even after the fact that a terror attack and a crime has been committed?

Since there is a need someone will crack iPhone security, if it hasn't been done already, even if it is not done by Apple. So rather than be taken by surprise and not know how it was done when someone else does it, the FBI is doing Apple a favor by having them do it themselves.
 
You are joking, right? You obviously must take Apple's word at face value unless you can prove that they are lying; the burden of proof is on the FBI, not Apple. You can't prove that you don't have something (especially if it's digital). What kind of logic is that, that since there's no proof that they don't have the keys, thus they should be responsible for giving them up? That's not any logic that will stand in any court. How about the FBI arrest you and tell you that since there's no proof that you don't know where ISIS' headquarters is, you have 24 hours to tell them or be arrested as a terrorist? That the FBI is asking Apple to do the FBI's work is exactly right, and in a country like the US, no one is obligated to do the FBI's work for them. It's not a criminal offense that you can charge them with aiding terrorists or obstructing justice for. Do you know anything about the law? It'd be like going to the parents of a suspect and telling them that if they don't find their son in 24 hours, they're obstructing justice. It is the FBI's job to find them and no one else's just like it is the FBI's job to crack this phone, and no one else's.

You are missing the point about the lying, I am saying Apple can be lying not that they are lying, simple enough.

Your analogy of the FBI request is completely off. Apple is not saying they will try their best and can't do it, they are saying they won't try and they won't do it, huge difference. Do you know anything about the law or analogies? It's like the parents of a suspect claiming they don't have the key to the suspect's room in their house and they won't even try to help open it.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
All I am pointing out is that Apple's word is being taken at face value and given a free pass when it is in the position to potentially be able to access data on their phones and not be found out.

Why should the rest of the world bear the burden of Apple providing shelter for terrorists and criminals even after the fact that a terror attack and a crime has been committed?

Since there is a need someone will crack iPhone security, if it hasn't been done already, even if it is not done by Apple. So rather than be taken by surprise and not know how it was done when someone else does it, the FBI is doing Apple a favor by having them do it themselves.

See previous post on burden/logic of proof.

The rest of the world must bear that burden because they paid for it. They paid for and continue to pay for Apple to create a secure device for them to use and there is no way to guarantee that terrorists or other criminals won't misuse it. The government has also not placed any restrictions on who Apple can sell it to.

Well, Apple has the right to reject the favor. It's not a criminal violation of obstruction of justice or aiding terrorists to reject a favor, is it? LOL
You are missing the point about the lying, I am saying Apple can be lying not that they are lying, simple enough.

Your analogy of the FBI request is completely off. Apple is not saying they will try their best and can't do it, they are saying they won't try and they won't do it, huge difference. Do you know anything about the law or analogies? It's like the parents of a suspect claiming they don't have the key to the suspect's room in their house and they won't even try to help open it.

I'm not missing the point. You are missing the point. They could be lying; they could not be lying, so what? Everybody could be lying or could not be lying. That means absolutely nothing.

Nowhere in my post did I ever say that the parents are doing their best; your mind invented that. My analogy is spot on, because the parents can tell the FBI that they want no part in it (assuming he's over 18). They don't have to try their best; their son is an independent person and his crimes are the responsibility of the FBI to deal with, not his parents. Just like once the iphone leave Apple's factory, what anyone does with it is no longer Apple's responsibility. They can legally tell the FBI that they will do nothing for them, as long as they're not actively helping the criminal get away. Now, if he lives at home, and the FBI has a search warrant for his room, then they should give up the key. If they tell the FBI that only he has the key or that they lost the key, it's the FBI's job to break down the door, NOT to hold the parents responsible for accessing that room. When they said they don't have the key, are they lying? Who knows, but you can't say they're lying unless you have evidence and if you don't have evidence, you assume they are truthful. That's the law, not your version where the parents must scramble to do everything they can to help the FBI or be held accountable for aiding the criminal; they are under no obligation.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
Per that overview article Apple claims that it doesn't store any keys, it can be lying through its teeth and nobody would be any the wiser. The article also states that there is no way to guarantee that Apple is incapable of accessing the encrypted data other than taking their word at face value.

The FBI is asking Apple to do the FBI's work for them. Apple is not saying it cannot do it, Apple is saying it doesn't want to do it. This is not about protecting end users' privacy, this is about protecting Apple's marketing, specifically putting it before human lives and national security.

The FBI should go ahead on its own to crack Apple's security while the lawsuits play out, most likely being forced to spend way more resources than if Apple co-operated, and hold Apple and its employees such as Tim Cook liable for obstruction of justice and aiding and abetting terrorists if timely intelligence was missed due to Apple's unco-operative behavior.

If we assume that Apple does store the UIDs and that knowing the UID allows FBI to crack the device, then there is no reason for the FBI to ask Apple to build a crack. They could simply ask for the UID and obtain a court order to do so. If Apple actually did store the UIDs in a database somewhere, then they would be obligated by law to turn over that information.

However, that is not what is happening here. The FBI specifically asked Apple to create a software to bypass the iPhone's security feature. Apple *could* be lying about storing UIDs, but if they did, they really would be facing obstruction of justice charges, and I don't think Apple would be willing to take that kind of risk to help a terrorist.

It's far more likely that Apple really doesn't store the UIDs, and the FBI knows this, hence why they got the courts to order Apple to create a software, and not simply hand over the UID.
 

no_name

Colonel
I've been told that Apple would be happy to unlock iphones for the FBI on a per-case basis. Thing is FBI wants Apple to hand over the means of unlocking iphones so that they themselves can do so unlimited by having to get a warrant each time they need to hack into an iphone. You can see how this could easily be misused and make people shy away from Apple products should a scandal occurs.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I've been told that Apple would be happy to unlock iphones for the FBI on a per-case basis. Thing is FBI wants Apple to hand over the means of unlocking iphones so that they themselves can do so unlimited by having to get a warrant each time they need to hack into an iphone. You can see how this could easily be misused and make people shy away from Apple products should a scandal occurs.

Do you have a link? That is the first instance I have heard of where it is confirmed that Apple can assess the data on locked iPhones and would be a significant admission with huge implications.
 

solarz

Brigadier
I've been told that Apple would be happy to unlock iphones for the FBI on a per-case basis. Thing is FBI wants Apple to hand over the means of unlocking iphones so that they themselves can do so unlimited by having to get a warrant each time they need to hack into an iphone. You can see how this could easily be misused and make people shy away from Apple products should a scandal occurs.

That's probably a confusion with older iPhones that had a different kind of security feature.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
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McAfee claims his organisation can break into the iPhone in 3 weeks.

Which pretty much confirms what I suspect - that its perfectly possible to break into iPhones, and that intelligence agencies probably developed the means to do so some time ago.

Which again, highlights the question of why the FBI is making such a horse and pony show out of this rather than just leave the phone alone in a room with some NSA/CIA people and come back to find it "magically" unlocked for them.

Which brings us back to my earlier suspicions.
 
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