What the Heck?! Thread (Closed)

[plawolf]

@plawolf- I agree with many of your points, especially on the important and necessary role of the CCP to pilot China through critical reforms and development. I don't have to like the Red Dynasty to appreciate its accomplishments, nor do I have to overlook its excesses and abuse of the Chinese people to understand and applaud the many good it has done. Least we forget, there really isn't any realistic alternatives to the CCP right now, and China might descend into chaos but for their strong rule.

The vast majority of political actors want to amass and retain power, so the CCP is no different than other politi around the world. The alarming thing is CCP will impose its rule with the gun, and did so 26 years ago. Denying that fact doesn't make it go away, and the thought CCP is all good all the time is irrational. Honest brokers call them as they see them, good or bad.

So far, the only proven model to national success is to develop ones economy and create strong institutions to support the society before massive reforms in the social and political arenas. Every single developed nation, East and West, used that blueprint for success. Countries that democratize before developing the economic muscle and the institutions to run them are basket cases. Therefore, China is right to follow the winning formula for success, and ignore calls for premature democratization from the West. The proof is in the pudding, and people don't have to like that to appreciate it.

This is a whole new level of OT you are leading us on here.

Tianmen is expressly prohibited, so I see no good coming from getting into that too much.

But I will say that the events on those days have been vastly distorted and exaggerated in the west.

Those were not just a bunch of wide-eyed hippies holding hands and singing Kumbaya.

A small but significant number of the people involved were behaving like the worst hooligans, and murdered a fair number of police and soldiers. Its little wonder a lot of these hardcore antiracists were also killed in return. What else would you expect when you attack police or soldiers with deadly force?

In addition, leaked internal documents showed that fair fewer civilians were killed (~300) than the thousands commonly quoted in the west (none were killed in the Square itself, all the deaths occurred around the outlaying barricades). And many of those were killed by ricochets when soldiers fired at the ground in front of protestors or into the air to try and scare them away.

Rather than a deliberate, cold blooded massacre as commonly insisted upon by the west, the events of that day looks far more like a botched attempt by the army at executing a police action for which its soldiers were neither trained nor equipped for.

 

[Blackstone]

@plawolf, we'll just to agree to disagree on some items.

 

[taxiya]

Do you give any credence to the theory CCP might stoke anti-Japanese nationalism to increase its legitimacy with the 1.3 billion Chinese it rules by the gun?

From my own and my many Chinese friends' experience, I can tell you that there is a very strong belief like yours among many western people. But that is far from the reality, almost like a fantasy.

Whenever a westerner begin to talk about such subject or similar with an oversea Chinese, he/she often take for granted that the Chinese would be "anti-China", but only shocked by the fact that the Chinese are very often "pro-China". The next thing the westerner would think or say (if he don't turn away) usually is that "you must be brain-washed" because there is really no gun at the Chinese head to blame CCP for.

As of me facing this situation, I usually choose to turn around and stop talking with the person as I am tired of this kind of meaningless argument to change their mindset, it is mission impossible. But here we are in internet, we meet for not long time and you seems interested, I will share some of my thought, take it just for your information.

1. China is way more freer than you may think. I know because I talk with friends when I am there. There is no NSA listening my phone. And we talk all kinds of things.
2. Many Chinese in the millions know lots about west. They have travelled a lot, they bring things back. Chinese are not locked up knowing nothing. What limits Chinese to visit western countries is not Chinese government, it is visa limitation by west. So long as a person is not criminal and can get a visa he/she can go anywhere he/she want.
3. Chinese admire western material life a lot, even democracy in general, but make no mistake regarding national interest. Many former Chinese governments were directly or indirectly violently removed due to their failed dealing towards foreign countries. For example, the defeat by Japan in 1897 cost the last imperial dynasty, a government of the later republic era in the 1920s collapsed due to its failure of taking back German colony in China at the Paris conference after WWI. CCP is very aware of all these. It is not really fair to blame CCP to stoke whatever.

My advice to you is to visit China, visit her people, talk to the real people, and stop believing some theory who knows who made up. Or if you are afraid of the "evil", talk to Chinese tourists, but don't project your image on them, you may get a turn-away.

 

[no_name]

Whenever a westerner begin to talk about such subject or similar with an oversea Chinese, he/she often take for granted that the Chinese would be "anti-China", but only shocked by the fact that the Chinese are very often "pro-China". The next thing the westerner would think or say (if he don't turn away) usually is that "you must be brain-washed" because there is really no gun at the Chinese head to blame CCP for.

Really it's a bit like thinking that many Americans must hate the US as a whole because they don't like the president and/or thinks that the congress is a joke.

 

[delft]

Agreed. But as pointed out by Equation, the cost of those giant specialized tires is exorbitant though I do not have comparative data. But tires are the parts most subjected to wear and tear. As I saw on Discovery Channel, to re-tread a tire in the US, it has to be sent a dedicated factory. Exclusivity has a price. Miners are at the mercy of tire companies. The truck makers can design the more axles and drive trains to be as durable or more, than fewer and bigger, but how do they design a more lasting tire?

You are all neglecting another matter: the weight of the wheels and gears. Look at the large aircraft of the 'thirties with often two main wheels while later ones had four. Example DC-4E(perimental) against the newly designed and slightly smaller DC-4 of several years later. A major advantage was the saving in weight which will also be important for this vehicle.

 

[delft]

The Middle East expert of my Dutch newspaper NRC (

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) comments today on the Dutch proposal to investigate human rights violations by all parties in Yemen introduced in the UN Human Rights Council. She writes that Saudi Arabia proposed that only violations by the Houthies were to be investigated and it was supported by US and UK because Saudi Arabia would never accept to be investigated and consensus with that country was important to US and UK. Besides said the highest civil servant of the Foreign Office human rights weren't a top priority anymore. Therefore the Dutch delegation retracted its proposal. So now we know - the human rights of Al Qaeda terrorists in Syria are more important than those of Yemeni children.

 

[taxiya]

Really it's a bit like thinking that many Americans must hate the US as a whole because they don't like the president and/or thinks that the congress is a joke.

Very true, typical effect of propaganda by mass media.
However, I have never met or known a Chinese that thinks this way (that Americans hate US). Actually I have never met anyone in Europe think this way. Many people may dislike American politicians but nobody I know of expressed such thought. Of course, I am not American so I wouldn't be in a position to know what Americans would experience.

 

[Blackstone]

From my own and my many Chinese friends' experience, I can tell you that there is a very strong belief like yours among many western people. But that is far from the reality, almost like a fantasy.

Whenever a westerner begin to talk about such subject or similar with an oversea Chinese, he/she often take for granted that the Chinese would be "anti-China", but only shocked by the fact that the Chinese are very often "pro-China". The next thing the westerner would think or say (if he don't turn away) usually is that "you must be brain-washed" because there is really no gun at the Chinese head to blame CCP for.

As of me facing this situation, I usually choose to turn around and stop talking with the person as I am tired of this kind of meaningless argument to change their mindset, it is mission impossible. But here we are in internet, we meet for not long time and you seems interested, I will share some of my thought, take it just for your information.

1. China is way more freer than you may think. I know because I talk with friends when I am there. There is no NSA listening my phone. And we talk all kinds of things.
2. Many Chinese in the millions know lots about west. They have travelled a lot, they bring things back. Chinese are not locked up knowing nothing. What limits Chinese to visit western countries is not Chinese government, it is visa limitation by west. So long as a person is not criminal and can get a visa he/she can go anywhere he/she want.
3. Chinese admire western material life a lot, even democracy in general, but make no mistake regarding national interest. Many former Chinese governments were directly or indirectly violently removed due to their failed dealing towards foreign countries. For example, the defeat by Japan in 1897 cost the last imperial dynasty, a government of the later republic era in the 1920s collapsed due to its failure of taking back German colony in China at the Paris conference after WWI. CCP is very aware of all these. It is not really fair to blame CCP to stoke whatever.

My advice to you is to visit China, visit her people, talk to the real people, and stop believing some theory who knows who made up. Or if you are afraid of the "evil", talk to Chinese tourists, but don't project your image on them, you may get a turn-away.

You seem to think I've never been to China, when in reality I've visited China many times in the last fiften years, and I've seen both good and bad. On balance, I'm quite impressed with that CCP leaders have done in such a short period of time. Let's address your points 1-3;

1) I agree China already has individual liberty on most things. Many of my office colleagues in the PRC openly express their displeasure of local, provincial, and national politicians and policies. I've said that several times on this message board. The exceptions that prove the rule are my colleagues might tell me in private they don't like the government dictating what churches are "official," but they wouldn't say that in public. Another example is the taboo subject on this forum.

2) I've quoted articles where CCP monitors the Internet to detect things that upset Chinese citizens. The government then go out and address the big or hot problems. I use that example as evidence the PRC is responsive to important concerns of the Chinese public. The fact CCP's priority is stay in power at all costs doesn't diminish the good things they do for people.

3) I pointed out CCP stoked nationalism it for its own purposes, and that's not a falsifiable statement. It's odd it turned out to be controversial, especially when it's relatively neutral.

 

[Blackstone]

... Of course, I am not American so I wouldn't be in a position to know what Americans would experience.

It's really simple; put three random Americans in a room and you'll get five different opinions on any single topic.

 

[Engineer]

Accusing China of fanning anti-Japan sentiment is just a form of psychological projection. The lame stream media spews out anti-China garbage everyday, and politicians from certain western nations use China as the bogeyman to divert populace from domestic problems. The accusers act certain way, then automatically assume everyone else behaves the same way.