US Navy & PLAN - South China Sea Situation News (Closed)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
While China is in the minority in it's view civilian ships enjoy broad FON rights and military ships don't, it's not an reasonable argument
Given historical precedents, and given China's own actions...I believe it is not reasonable at all.

China did not have to send an entire military flotilla through the Bearing Sea to make their point. They could have used Civilian Maritime Agency vessels..

But what they chose to do is the exact counter to what you just described..

I would be much more willing to concede that they themselves feel the way you describe about Civilian vs. Military vessels (though I would still not agree with it), if China itself had taken the opportunity to use civilian vessels to make its point off of Alaska.

But they didn't,
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
The Senate has not ratified it...but the US President has said he will follow it as a matter of policy.

So, it's an agreement for the US, but not a treaty. There is a difference as regards the specifics of US law, but when it comes to FON, it is not just based on UNCLOS. UNCLOS does identify and clarify certain aspects of it that the US has said it will abide.

But FON has been around a long time.
The issue for the rest of the world isn't whether Presidential administrations generally adhere to UNCLOS, but what happens should a country with sufficient global heft hauls Washing to the international court and wins an important judgement. If US refuses to abide by ICJ rulings, then it doesn't matter if it's the doing of Senate or the President, because the rest of the world only cares US refused to follow international rules.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Given historical precedents, and given China's own actions...I believe it is not reasonable at all.

China did not have to send an entire military flotilla through the Bearing Sea to make their point. They could have used Civilian Maritime Agency vessels..

But what they chose to do is the exact counter to what you just described..

I would be much more willing to concede that they themselves feel the way you describe about Civilian vs. Military vessels (though I would still not agree with it), if China itself had taken the opportunity to use civilian vessels to make its point off of Alaska.

But they didn't,
But, the fact China isn't consistent is immaterial if (big IF) it brings the issue to the ICJ for adjudication. China can legitimately say whatever happened in the past is moot, as long as new rulings are observed.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
This doesn't sound good. I hope Chinese nationalism doesn't push the government into unwise actions.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

On Oct. 27, the high-stakes maritime game of chicken that has been playing out in the South China Sea came to a head. In a long-discussed freedom of navigation patrol, the United States sailed the USS Lassen, a guided missile destroyer, within 12 miles of artificial islands that China has built amid territorial disputes in the South China Sea. China tracked and warned the U.S. vessel; the operation concluded without incident and prompted swift condemnation from China’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs. But after weeks of tough government rhetoric claiming that China would not stand for what it views as a violation of its territorial sovereignty, Chinese social media voices are now mocking what many perceive as a spineless official response.

After learning that the U.S. naval operation was imminent, on Oct. 27 Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi warned the United States to “think again and not to act blindly or make trouble from nothing.” Calling the ship’s actions illegal, China’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs said the ship’s actions threatened regional peace as well as U.S.-China relations. “The actions of the U.S. warship have threatened China’s sovereignty and security interests, jeopardized the safety of personnel and facilities on the reefs, and damaged regional peace and stability,” the ministry stated on its website. The ministry did not indicate whether Beijing would consider a military response. “I have no comment on a hypothetical question,” Lu Kang, a foreign ministry spokesman, told assembled journalists on the afternoon of Oct. 27.

But what look like stern warnings to the United States have prompted an outpouring of ridicule among China’s grassroots nationalists, who often evince online frustration at what they see as the Chinese government tendency to issue protests rather than take military action. Media giant Sina posted the Chinese foreign minister’s Oct. 27 warning to its news account on the Twitter-like site Weibo, where it quickly garnered more than 3,000 comments.

“Don’t act rashly, otherwise I will start scolding you!” wrote one user in a popular comment, mimicking the Chinese foreign minister’s response to the U.S. naval operation. “What Wang Yi really means,” wrote another, “is ‘if you dare do this again, you better believe I’m going to strongly condemn you!’” A third user wrote mockingly, “We lodge a protest, we seriously lodge a protest, we protest we protest we super duper protest!”

An Oct. 27 editorial by state news agency Xinhua also endured netizen derision. It claimed that U.S. actions in the region had caused the “indignation of the Chinese people,” and that “China isn’t afraid of trouble.” The piece attracted thousands of comments on Weibo, the most popular of which almost universally ridiculed authorities for not taking action. “If you weren’t afraid of trouble, then you would fire a guided missile to get rid of [America],” went one popular comment. “‘China isn’t afraid of trouble,’ that really cracks me up,” wrote another user in a highly up-voted post. “What it fears most is when mighty foreigners stir up trouble.” Another demanded, “Stop boasting and fight!”

China has long maintained that it has sovereignty over much of the South China Sea, an important global waterway that several other nations also claim in part. As Chinese President Xi Jinping stated on his state visit to Washington, DC in September, the region’s islands have belonged to China “since ancient times.” In the past year, China has garnered international scrutiny for its rapid construction of artificial islands on what were once partially submerged features in the sea. The United States does not have claims in the region but has repeatedly emphasized that it will seek to preserve freedom of navigation in the resource-rich and trade-heavy region.

Beijing is surely familiar with the country’s reliably truculent online nationalists, and Chinese authorities have apparently worked to calibrate a message that is forceful enough to act as a believable deterrent to the United States while stopping short of promising direct military intervention. In May, Foreign Minister spokesperson Hua Chunying stated, amid U.S. consideration of a freedom of navigation operation, that such a move would “not give one country’s military aircraft and ships free access to another country’s territorial waters and airspace.” But as a U.S. navy patrol became more likely, official Chinese rhetoric became more pointed. On Oct. 14, Hua accused the United States of flexing its “military muscles” in the South China Sea, stating that China “will never allow any country to violate China’s territorial waters and airspace in the Spratly Islands, in the name of protecting freedom of navigation and overflight.” On Oct. 15, an editorial in the state-run and reliably nationalist Global Times condemned Washington’s “ceaseless provocations and coercion,” declaring that China “mustn’t tolerate rampant U.S. violations of China’s adjacent waters and the skies over those expanding islands” and adding that China’s military should “be ready to launch countermeasures according to Washington’s level of provocation.”

Evidently, Beijing did not appear to have launched countermeasures effective enough to prevent the USS Lassen from sailing within what China has repeatedly declared its inviolable sovereign territory. With such a mild initial response to the tune of netizen disdain, China’s tough nationalist rhetoric on its maritime sovereignty claims may seem to have been a strategic blunder, making it seem like a paper tiger on both the domestic and international stages. But Jessica Chen Weiss, associate professor of government at Cornell University, told Foreign Policy that the long-term outlook may be more in China’s favor. “The Chinese media have given prominent coverage to the U.S. naval patrol in the South China Sea, suggesting that the Chinese government does not plan to let this go unanswered,” said Weiss. “In addition to registering official expressions of displeasure, China will likely take additional measures to forestall domestic criticism and convey its tough stance on this now high-profile foreign policy issue.”

China’s shrill online nationalists may dominate the web in the aftermath of a flashpoint, but while common, such online outrage has not led to government action in the past. And some netizens harbor more nuanced perspectives. One particularly discerning Weibo user, who identified himself as a 22-year-old native of China’s northeastern Shandong province, also seemed to take the long view of the South China Sea, noting the behind-the-scenes machinations that make the region so complex. “This seems like a game,” wrote the user in a popular comment. “Not only have both countries maintained their reputations, neither country has suffered any losses.” Another observed somewhat sardonically that the situation, all told, was “well managed.” The user noted that China had “gotten rid of the U.S. ship, maintained its sovereignty, and hasn’t worsened the situation. Afterwards, it can be used as an excuse for militarization in the South China Sea.”
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
OK here it's a Public Holiday today so I went through the posts again, I have a question based on:

#1

and

#2

and the question is whether there's a difference between
  • the US being concerned about its
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    in #1 (I gave a link to wiki because I had checked if there's anything special about EEZ off Alaska), and
  • the China being concerned about its EEZ around
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    (here the link to wiki is because I didn't know what it is :)
?

China believes that a nation which has an EEZ is able to allow or deny the passage of military ships or other types of ships conducting any kind of surveillance or military activities, IIRC, while the US believes differently. China has no problem with military vessels going through its EEZ based on innocent passage.

Again, the two situations are quite different simply based on the issue of innocent passage.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I guess Foreign Policy magazine didn't bother to read the comments of the readers to their own articles before they stopped allowing comments. Maybe that's why they stopped comments so they can hide the hypocrisy. It's ironic that what Chinese netizens say is something to worry about but those that get to vote for their leaders are not.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Because the Chinese and you claim it is different?

It *is* the same and you, like the Chinese, cannot perceive reality correctly.

There is no reciprocity in this situation.
China gets to do what it wants, others cannot.
If you don't do what they demand they react like this:

Really? If you have any proof that the Chinese ships which sailed through Alaskan waters loitered or did so differently?
The Chinese government transited through the Alaskan waters in a way consistent with innocent passage, and even the USN said the same:
"“The five PLAN ships transited expeditiously and continuously through the Aleutian Island chain in a manner consistent with international law,” according to a Thursday statement provided to USNI News by U.S. Northern Command."

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!




So when 5 Chinese naval vessels took the liberty to sail across the waters off the islands of Alaska it is different because...they and you want this to be so?

This claim is pure intellectual nonsense based in non-logic, non-facts, and the response from the Chinese Government and Chinese People in online comments says it all.

All I have to do is post Chinese comments to show the vast gap in responses.

Lol no, I've shown you pieces of evidence from both the Chinese side and the US side which both demonstrate that the Chinese vessels passing through the Alaskan waters were consistent with innocent passage, while the USS Lassen's passage near China's reclaimed islands were inherently not innocent in nature as it loitered in the area for several hours and also had support from an overflying MPA.

In case you need a definition of innocent passage, here is a definition from that usni link "Specifically, it means during an innocent passage a warship can’t launch or recover aircraft, collect military intelligence, distribute propaganda, launch any kind of watercraft, fire weapons, fish or take any other action that is not involved in the direct passage of the ship through the territory of the costal state."

So yes, I'm sorry but in this case you have no legs to stand on, and claiming that the Chinese government or Chinese commenters are lying doesn't change the fact that your claim from your previous post is demonstrably false.
 
Last edited:

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Bltizo, there was a very important similarity in what China did in Alaska and what the US did in the SCS.

China was sending a message. That was their intent.

They had an AOR, an LPD, two FFGs and a DDG. A large group of ships that really had no scientific, survey, geological, or other "purpose" in going through there other than to show they could...which is to say, FON.

How someone "perceives" intent cannot be the deciding factor in relations like this. Leaders and the representatives of nations have to rise above that because such subjectiveness cannot be the basis for maritime law.

The US recognized that the PLAN had the right to do what it did because that was the only way through the straits, and with FON with respect to the 12 mile limit, passing through in such circumstances is according to maritime law. As such, it fell within very objective, very well known criteria.

With the US in the SCS, since the Islands are artificial, according to maritime law, there is no 12 mile limit, therefore FON is also allowed according to well defined objective criteria.

Both nations had the intent to punctuate FON. China with a large group through US waters, the US with a single vessel near Chinese artificial islands in the South China Sea.

In this sense, both operations were punctuating FON. And FON was the entire point.

China could have sent "non-threatening" vessels through the Bearing Strait and past US waters. Yet they deliberately chose to send a large military flotilla instead. The US recognized that group, despite its size, was not a real threat to US national interests.

The US chose to send a single destroyer on its mission...and specifically to do two things:

1) To make its FON point.
2) To make the point with a vessel, that by itself, would not be threatening either.

I believe that China simply cannot have it both ways when it comes to this type of FON.

Jeff, there is a difference, simply based on the fact that the Chinese ships moved through the Alaskan waters expeditiously consistent with what is defined by innocent passage, whereas USS Lassen loitered near the waters of the islands for several hours and had support by at least a USN P-8, in actions which clearly was deliberately different from what is accepted as innocent passage

Again, a definition of innocent passage: "Specifically, it means during an innocent passage a warship can’t launch or recover aircraft, collect military intelligence, distribute propaganda, launch any kind of watercraft, fire weapons, fish or take any other action that is not involved in the direct passage of the ship through the territory of the coastal state."

Also you said "The US recognized that group, despite its size, was not a real threat to US national interests."
Yes, that is also true -- and if the Chinese task group had decided to linger in Alaskan waters or set out some towed sonars or deploy a few helicopters for a few hours, then that would be inconsistent with innocent passage and the US could have protested in the same way that China did.
If USS Lassen had transited quickly through the waters near the islands without air support in a way which is consistent with innocent passage China likely would not have interpreted it as a threat either.
 

Brumby

Major
Again, a definition of innocent passage: "Specifically, it means during an innocent passage a warship can’t launch or recover aircraft, collect military intelligence, distribute propaganda, launch any kind of watercraft, fire weapons, fish or take any other action that is not involved in the direct passage of the ship through the territory of the coastal state."
The principle of innocent passage is only applicable in passage through territory seas. There is no such thing in EEZ. It was the case even before UNCLOS and is a common principle in maritime law. What China is attempting to do is to define the sui generis EEZ as territory seas. This is not part of the grand bargain in UNCLOS. It is the very reason why the term sovereign rights was introduced in the text in UNCLOS to differentiate that with sovereignty. This principle has majority support by all maritime powers other than China.
The USS Larsen specifically loiter within the 12 nm was to demonstrate it was exercising FON and not innocent passage.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
The principle of innocent passage is only applicable in passage through territory seas. There is no such thing in EEZ. It was the case even before UNCLOS and is a common principle in maritime law. What China is attempting to do is to define the sui generis EEZ as territory seas. This is not part of the grand bargain in UNCLOS. It is the very reason why the term sovereign rights was introduced in the text in UNCLOS to differentiate that with sovereignty. This principle has majority support by all maritime powers other than China.
The USS Larsen specifically loiter within the 12 nm was to demonstrate it was exercising FON and not innocent passage.

And that is where the issue of EEZ interpretation of UNCLOS surrounding the issue of military actions and surveillance in a nation's EEZ comes up, and as we have discussed previously, there is a divide regarding this issue between most nations who have been traditionally naval powers, and those who have not been.

edit: this just goes to show that nfgc's original comparison was comparing apples and oranges, the situations were different, in more ways than one.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top