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gelgoog said:

It is still retarded. And Americans joke about the Russian Su-57 program.
149 Block 30, and 37 Block 20 F-22s. Basically 37 aircraft which can only be used for training purposes.

For comparison the Russians already produced 151 Su-35s at this point. And they have an economy a fraction of the size of the US. It will be a riot if the Su-57 ends up being produced in more numbers than the F-22.

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Nobody is denying that American procurement during the 2000s has been a huge mess, however it is what it is. I think its highly likely that the real issue here is LM's limited engineering resources

F-35 Block 4 R&D is very high priority for the USAF. If LM can't invest engineering resources to upgrading the F-22 without affecting its Block 4 R&D program, then its easy to see why the USAF is retiring the early F-22 block 20 aircrafts (especially if it thinks that the early version aircrafts aren't well suited to fight off the J-20s)

gelgoog said:

It is still retarded. And Americans joke about the Russian Su-57 program.
149 Block 30, and 37 Block 20 F-22s. Basically 37 aircraft which can only be used for training purposes.

For comparison the Russians already produced 151 Su-35s at this point. And they have an economy a fraction of the size of the US.

Click to expand...

The block 20s should not be used for training. "In March 29 testimony before the House Armed Services Committee’s tactical aviation panel, Moore said the Block 20s are not “competitive” with the latest Chinese J-20 stealth fighters. And while the aircraft could be used for training, Moore said they are so out of synch with the combat-coded Block 35s that pilots are receiving “negative” training from them, meaning they have to “unlearn” habits developed in the Block 20 before they can become proficient in the Block 35."

I do not get why the F-22 upgrade from Block 20 to 30 is supposed to cost about the same per aircraft as a new F-35.
I also do not get why it is going to take substantial engineering resources, when the Block 30 is already available and in service. Just produce the damned components and stuff them in the aircraft.

gelgoog said:

I do not get why the F-22 upgrade from Block 20 to 30 is supposed to cost about the same per aircraft as a new F-35.
I also do not get why it is going to take substantial engineering resources, when the Block 30 is already available and in service. Just produce the damned components and stuff them in the aircraft.

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Because the production line for F-22 is shut down. That makes upgrades quite a bit more difficult than it would be for something like the F-35, which is being built at triple digits every year.

Ok. Now I think I get it. I read some more, and the older aircraft do not even use the same radar. That's just great.

gelgoog said:

There is nothing particularly wrong with the F-22. They just did not buy enough of them. So now it is not worth the trouble to make upgrades for them. Another major mistake, I think, was not using the exact same engine on the F-22 and F-35 like they did with the Teen series.

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I think the US did themselves a disservice by cancelling the F-22 programme but in 2009 when the programme was cancelled the J-20, Su-57 or even J-10C did not exist. The US desperately tried to save money due to the costly wars in the middle east. When looking at it from their 2009 perspective, it is not as crazy as I think many people seem to believe it is. I. Had both fighters been in production simultaneously they might have used the same engines but they are a decade apart in production and the F135 is based upon the F119 if I remember correctly.

gelgoog said:

It is still retarded. And Americans joke about the Russian Su-57 program.
149 Block 30, and 37 Block 20 F-22s. Basically 37 aircraft which can only be used for training purposes.

For comparison the Russians already produced 151 Su-35s at this point. And they have an economy a fraction of the size of the US. It will be a riot if the Su-57 ends up being produced in more numbers than the F-22.

There is nothing particularly wrong with the F-22. They just did not buy enough of them. So now it is not worth the trouble to make upgrades for them. Another major mistake, I think, was not using the exact same engine on the F-22 and F-35 like they did with the Teen series.

Click to expand...

But how does the situation compare to say J-11, J-10A, J-10B. Those are not top of the line aircraft either but China is not replacing them any time soon. Losing to J-20B is really not that shameful. It cannot be capability. Is F-22 in particular more costly than aircraft of same type? How does it compare to F-35 and F-15? US military budget is quite high and they are still expanding the F-35 fleet. But now it appear they are not able to maintain existing aircraft? "$485 million a year" quoted comes down to 13 millions a year each. Is this exceedingly high?

I feel the actual reason could be lack of parts. If it were just expensive it would be alright. US is full of expensive stuff. But if it were lack of parts then it becomes a liability risking to accidents.

CMP said:

Could be. Real evidence would be top secret and put you in jail.

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In other words you don't know. Then you should not act smug about it. Or maybe you are claiming you do know but it is classified. In that case you should clarify as such and I won't probe further.

Understanding Combined Arms Warfare from the U.S. military perspective and practices.

"No one soldier, or one weapon systems wins a war. Every weapon, every branch has it's own strengths and vulnerabilities; which means overcoming your opponent requires integrating the different arms and weapons so that they make up for each other's shortcomings in exploit the limitations of the enemy. The winner on the battlefield is the side that's better at combining and maneuvering all those capabilities together." JONATHAN HOUSE, Phd. Combined Arms Warfare in the 20th century (author)

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