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sevrent

New Member
Registered Member
Confirmed by The War Zone who reached out to the Joint Program Office (JPO). No details on capability yet, but I am guessing it will probably be significantly upgraded over current radar. Also, getting new panoramic displays (before the radar) along with a host of other upgrades as part of Technology Refresh 3.

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What’s most interesting to me, is that we only learned about this become of some small subtext in a pretty obscure document. So obscure people seriously thought it was a typo. USAF has said nothing about this. Also given that now we know that F-35 radar contracts are included with the F-35 and are not separate. Means there could be other stuff we have no clue about.

This radar will be exclusive to Block 4 F-35’s. All block 3F F-35’s (large majority of all F-35’s) will be upgraded to block 4 as time goes on. Block 4 F-35 upgrades will be added piecemeal over time. All upgrades as part of the Block 4 capability should be complete by 2029 ish.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
America has a better track record than Iran and modern Russia, I'll grant that. But that is not much of a high benchmark to set yourself. Both the F-35 and F-22 projects were beset with delays and teething problems. In the case of the latter they had to abandon it because "they forgot how to make them" apparently
They had to abandon it as Congress ordered it canceled they wanted to shift the funds to Iraq and Afghanistan. Later was interest in restarting production but by that point they hadn’t “forgotten” anything the industrial base had been disestablished. The tooling was dismantled some of the suppliers were gone. This is the dirty little secret of manufacturing in general if you stop making it you loose the ability to make it.
Even if they had by that point and today the F22’s system’s architecture was obsolete vs the F35’s.
America does make things right sometimes, but I don't see the justification for congratulatory back patting over a plane that hasn't even flown yet.

The unveiling was just a way to let the American public to get a glimpse of what the MIC have been doing with billions of tax dollars. It shouldn't be taken as a milestone of progress.
And I don’t see any basis for the degree of trolling and victory lapping you are doing as at this point B21 is on time and Budget. No indication of issues. Your like the still rolling ludites who claim an “F35 death spiral”.
Your second statement here sounds more like a Sino or Russian fan boy trying to cope with no signs of H20 or PAK-Dah.

Most of the technologies you mention to are unrelated to STEALTH, i.e. the ability of the defender to detect an intruder.

The primary reason the F-117 was shot down was because it was detected. Other factors/errors may have made it easier but that's neither here nor there, war is messy and doesn't always go to plan. The pilot flew over Serbia did so with the assumption he wouldn't be seen. Stealth technology has improved since the F-117 days but for every new technology eventually a countermeasure emerges.

Not much more for me to say on this than I hope the US military thinks the same way as you do. As they say, pride comes before a fall.
Quite to the contrary!
You are making a revisionist statement that fails to grasp the truth. The whole basis of F117 was it was built from an advanced prototype of the first generation of stealth demonstration aircraft. As such it only had an IR based sensor suite. The pilot had exceptionally limited vision and the aircraft as a whole was built from parts pulled from other aircraft.
It was Stealth in that it was nearly invisible to X band radar. Detection of an intruder isn’t the ability to respond to the intruder. That lesson should be well known as the SR71 regularly intruded into any number of threat airspace but was due to it’s extremely high altitude and speed a system for which there was no ability to respond to or deterrent in risk. Effective counter response is when a deterrent is present. The U2 for a time was able to operate with impunity over Soviet airspace but once Gary Powers was shot down the U2’s days were numbered.

The more advanced stealth aircraft integrate both the shaping and stealth material science with passive and active sensors. Where the F117 was blind to its detection, modern stealth aircraft can determine whether they are entering a radar system’s sphere and how strong that field is. This enables the pilot of the Stealth to make operational decisions. For a F22 or B21 they may choose to remain at the edges of the field circumnavigating it without risking closing to emitter and it’s kill zone. Or if an F35 operating in a SEAD the pilot may elect to destroy the emitter.

Lt. Col. Dale Zelko who was the pilot of the F117 had flown that operation a number of times under escort of an EA6 Prowler. This was as the prowler’s systems allowed it to detect Air defense systems in the area and attack them either jamming or with a HARM missile. He was unawares by the limitations of his aircraft not by the belief that he was some invisible black knight.
Zoltan Dani the commander of the Serb Air defense unit that would shoot down the F117 only activated his radar system After being informed of bad weather at the Italian airbase where the EA6 was operating out of.
Dani activated his radars in short bursts to try and protect his command. His first burst malfunctioned he then reactivated his P18 radar system and though was able to detect the aircraft in the air he wasn’t able to target it. As the P18 with its long wavelength wasn’t a targeting radar and lacks the resolution needed to track and target. Dani activated his fire control radar. It found nothing. so he turned them off.
The radar a short wavelength beam would have in the presence of an EA6 been his death sentence. Dani’s targets may have been the F117 but his enemy was the HARM. Dani was well aware of the dangers of American electric warfare and anti radiation missiles.
However he was the one who was confident in his remaining undetected as the rained in Prowlers assured him no HARM would come to him (pun intended).
So he did something that Dani himself made a rule never to do, he re activated his radars a third time. By happenstance the F117 had taken the same route to repeated target and the door was open.
3 F117 were in the air that night only 1 was shot down.
Had Lt. Col. Dale Zelko been behind the stick of an F22 that night the electronic suit would have warned him of Dani’s radars. Zelko would have taken counter actions. Had he been behind the stick of an F35 it’s likely that Dani would’ve been killed.
F117 was blind, the advancement of Fifth generation combat aircraft isn’t just the addition of stealth but stealth in combination with electronic warfare capabilities that make them able to see heat and detect threats land sea air and across the Electromagnetic spectrum well also exchanging that information across its brethren in low intercept data links.

You say Pride before the fall. I say oversimplification leads and leaps to conclusion often lead to tragedy.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
The difficulties of underwater communications make unmanned submarines way less viable than aerial ones. There is a reason why they still use wires to provide command authority on torpedos. In theory you could use sound like whales do for communications up to like a dozen kms from the carrier submarine. Sound based communication, based on mechanical waves, is also low bandwidth in nature and can only transmit simplified data. For anything over that you need to pop up a buy and connect to a satellite link. There is ultra low frequency but because of the huge size of the transmitting arrays, it means it is basically a one way broadcasting link from land to the submarines. And it is also really low bandwidth, even worse than sound based comms, so think of it more like a telegram service.

With regards to the P18 radar, that is a meter wave radar, the Soviets replaced it with the Nebo. Russia has the Nebo-M which is part of a complex where they integrate meter (RLM-M), decimeter (RLM-D), and centimeter (RLM-S) radars to provide a more complete situational picture. The decimeter and centimeter radars use AESA technology. So quite likely they can use beam steering to focus the radar signal on the target area of interest detected by the meter radar. Russia has also been building a load of fixed position Rezonans-NE meter wave radars in the Arctic. They exported that system to Egypt, Iran, and Algeria.
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
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Experts: U.S. Military Chip Supply Is Dangerously Low
If a war involving Taiwan were to break out in the next decade, the DoD’s ability to respond effectively would be challenged by the Russia-Ukraine War, competition from commercial chip buyers and an over-reliance on Asian semiconductor suppliers.

01.06.2023

The U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) will probably take years to wean itself from Asian chip supplies because of a dearth of investments in domestic production capacity, according to industry insiders and government observers.

Global chip shortages have impeded the ability of DoD contractors like Lockheed Martin and Raytheon to boost production of weapons used in the Russia-Ukraine War.

The DoD must also reckon with competition from commercial buyers for foundry wafers, as well as the military’s over-reliance on older chip architectures.

As a result, concerns are surfacing that the U.S. may have difficulty responding, for as many as 10 years, to a war involving Taiwan—which is home to manufacturers that, ironically, supply chips used by the DoD.

Taiwan is at the center of rising tensions between the U.S. and China. On Dec. 25, China sent a record 47 aircraft across the median line in the Taiwan Strait, according to Taiwan’s Ministry of National Defense. That incursion came days after the U.S. passed the 2023 National Defense Authorization Act, which allows for up to $10 billion in security assistance to Taiwan over the next five years.

The DoD may need a decade to build a reliable domestic supply chain, according to Mike Burns, an electronics engineer who has founded chip companies like iDeal Semiconductor and Agere Systems. The issue is how fast U.S.-based Intel can catch up with Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. (TSMC), which makes Altera and Xilinx field programmable gate arrays (FPGAs) and other chips that the DoD uses in weapons systems like the F-35 fighter jet, missiles and command-and-control gear, he said.

“Maybe that’s a three-year effort,” he told EE Times. “I’m just saying that it’s many years.”

To be sure, TSMC more than tripled its overall investment in Phoenix, Ariz., to about $40 billion in December to make way for a second U.S. chip facility that’s set to start production at the 3-nm node in 2026. While Apple and AMD aim to buy chips from TSMC’s Arizona site, the fab isn’t likely to be a DoD supplier, Burns said.

“I don’t think TSMC would do that,” he said. “If you’ve seen their stance on American engineers, they don’t seem very pleased with them.”

TSMC has often said it aims to keep its most advanced production technology in Taiwan, where the world’s largest foundry makes more than 90% of its chips. The company last year began rolling out its first 3-nm chips in Taiwan—years ahead of the U.S.

TSMC has encountered a culture clash with some of the engineers it hired in the U.S. to work at the Arizona site. That challenge and TSMC’s focus on serving large customers like Apple and AMD will make Intel’s smaller foundry service a more likely fit as a DoD supplier, Burns noted.

“That will be up to Intel,” he said. “Intel Foundry Services can make application-specific integrated circuits (ASICs) that are one or two generations behind the process at TSMC. Maybe that makes up the difference.”

Years ago, Intel bought FPGA supplier Altera, which uses TSMC to make the programmable chips that are easily modified yet lag the performance of ASICs. The DoD is forced to rely on FPGAs because it can’t find a large foundry like TSMC or Samsung to make custom ASICs for its weapons systems.

The competition from commercial customers like Apple and AMD for foundry wafers has diminished the purchasing power of small buyers like the DoD. Even U.S.-based GlobalFoundries gives little priority to the DoD, Burns said.

“GlobalFoundries has a ton of commercial customers pushing for volume. We never know with an increase in military wafers: How long will that last? Usually they’re high cost, low volume, and they’re unpredictable in volume.”

The U.S. military relies on legacy, or older, chip architectures that aren’t widely available and often must be made in small, dedicated batches, Bryan Clark, a senior fellow with the Hudson Institute, told EE Times.

“When chip shortages occur, companies that make these chips can make more money building chips for appliances and cars,” he said. “If the DoD used more state-of-the-art chips with commercial architectures and adapted them through packaging or software, the U.S. military would be able to tap into the scale of commercial production and be less vulnerable to chip supply disruptions.”

China, which the U.S. has punished with recent chip export-control measures, faces supply chain issues of its own. The U.S. considers China a “strategic competitor” that’s a threat in tech domains like 5G telecommunications and AI.

“The PRC military already uses a significant fraction of commercially available chips, but they are completely dependent on U.S. and Western technology to build those chips, or the PRC military has to buy the chips from potential rivals like Japan or Taiwan,” Clark said. “The PRC military is therefore better able to weather supply disruptions, but less prepared to address supply cut-offs that occur for national security reasons.”

FPGAs lag ASICs

The DoD needs to reserve a certain amount of capacity for surges in demand like that created by the Ukraine War, Burns said. He proposed to the U.S. Congress three years ago that the U.S. government should subsidize a joint venture with an advanced fab like TSMC for dedicated DoD capacity. Small U.S. foundries like SkyWater can’t meet the DoD’s need for advanced chips, he added.

“As much as we use the SkyWaters of the world at 90 nm and 130 nm, we still need advanced compute, but we can’t get it,” Burns said. “No trusted fab does 5-nm compute. We tend to buy FPGAs and configure them in the U.S. where the configuration can be secret. But with any FPGA, you have a tradeoff of performance because a purpose-built ASIC is going to be faster.”

The DoD did not respond to a request for comment from EE Times.

Suppliers of weapons systems like Raytheon say chip shortages limit their ability to expand production.

“There is no magic formula in the supply chain to accelerate this,” Raytheon CEO Greg Hays said in a Dec. 7 interview with CNBC. “We’re working to do as much as we can to try and cut that lead time down. But there are thousands of components. Not surprisingly, chips are a key element in this equipment. We’re working with the DoD to find other alternatives, perhaps in terms of some of the suppliers.”

In its mid-October 2022 earnings call, Lockheed Martin said its sales this year will be little changed from last year. With continuing impacts from the Covid pandemic and supply chain challenges, the company expects a return to growth in 2024.

Raytheon and Lockheed Martin operate aging chip fabs in the U.S. that are on a list of trusted DoD suppliers.
...
 

Lethe

Captain
MarKoz81 said:
This is comparable to US production capacity planned in the "30-year shipbuilding plan" from 2020:

View attachment 104867
View attachment 104868

39-49 SSNs vs 57 SSNs in 2033
The numbers here seem to come from the December 2020 shipbuilding plan
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.

Notably, planned SSN numbers are higher in this plan than in either the previous FY2020 plan published
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, or the more recent FY2023 plan published
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.

March 2019 plan has 51 SSNs in service in 2033, from a low of 42 in 2027/2028, increasing to 67 by 2049.
December 2020 plan has 57 SSNs in service in 2033, from a low of 50 in 2026, increasing to 80 by 2051.
April 2022 plan has 49 SSNs in service in 2033, from a low of 46 in 2028, increasing to 60-69 (depending on projection series) by 2052.

At first glance the near-term differences between the plans owe more to different retirement rates than production rates...
 
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MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
I'm quoting private conversation because it took a turn that is relevant to public discussion here and I wanted to share a few thoughts that might be useful:

I think that in the longer-term the solution will be found in the manner the Navy wants: by Congress throwing more money at the problem. Escalating threat perceptions from China will pave the road to returning funding (in %GDP terms) to Cold War levels, and progress relief of bottlenecks including personnel. But that all takes time, leading to short/medium-term crunch.

This is not a realistic scenario. The question that needs to be asked first is how did the US manage to fund Cold War spending levels.
Mil_Exp_0.jpg
US military spending is a function of US operating as a security producer under regular economic rules. It grows where profit margins are high and shrinks where profit margins are low. It also grows when funding is available and shrinks when it becomes scarce. But all of it is excessive and relies on money creation.

This is why the highest levels of funding occurred during WW2 when all of military funding was covered by real gains from taking over European and Asian economic markets. It remains at ~10% for as long as Bretton Woods system exists, then in 1971 it collapses as USD loses purchasing power due to shift to free-floating of currencies. It bounces back as Reagan introduces deficit spending which is necessary because of tax cuts. But deficit financing is more difficult because it requires financial markets to absorb it without affecting the exchange rates which under Bretton Woods were rigid. This is the reason for Plaza and Paris accords and for the Gulf War I and II reinforcing the petrodollar - a necessary tool to maintain artificially elevated demand for US dollar under market conditions.

Every subsequent expansion of military funding was smaller than the predecessor and it was funded by less sustainable means.

Military spending is not a stock market bubble. It is a very real type of economy because its main element is people and physical resource consumption over time and space. There is no subjective valuation only objective outcomes. You can only grow it as the real economy allows and there is simply no more economy for the US to plunder to fund its military expansion. It already eats up the world economy via the USD to fund what it already has and struggles to maintain.

The US is effectively already a world empire in financial terms. It can't grow any more because it already has everything that it physically can control.

Any further expansion of China will take away from it and the only remaining large emerging markets like India and Africa are out of reach for US economy which has become highly financialized and manufactures high-cost products. The funding pool is set to shrink and it can't be reversed except for raising taxes. How do you manage that without a major crisis which enabled New Deal and how do you re-direct the funds to military production instead of social programs? The wealthy must feel physically threatened to agree to it - just like then. I think that is not going to happen in the next ten years and that's the window the US has to improve its position.

Another issue is what would happen if funds were found.

There's a structural difference between US submarine industry and Chinese submarine industry that affects its dynamic. In the US there are two large shipyards building SSNs - each of them belonging to a major defense contractor and each having a strategic product they deliver for the military. General Dynamics (Groton) builds SSBNs. Huntington Ingalls (Newport News) builds CVNs. Both share comparable orders for SSNs, with GD getting slightly more. This means that whenever there's additional funding for SSN production both will expect orders. That effectively means that overhead is doubled unless one of them agrees to being excluded from more orders. That is unlikely to happen because shipbuilding in the US is a declining industry. There is no projected future growth and the markets adapt by shifting resources to more profitable areas. Because any increase in funding usually lags behind markets it changes little.

The representatives from GD and HI said as much to Congress around 2019-2020. There are no subcontractor and delivery chains in place capable of supporting expanded production because they were slowly starved after 1991. Any increase in funding went to wars and not naval expansion. That's 30 years of declining trends in a monopsonic market with world's highest cost of production. It has to be restored first before expansion can start.

Bottom right corner:

SBSD timeline.jpg

Columbia is already late with planned dates of delivery and SSBN force will be cut to 10 boats until 2040s and half of them will be a 1980s Ohio. Any delay and there's fewer nukes on patrol than required for current strategic deterrence doctrine. SSBNs have priority, SSNs do not.

If GBSD isn't ready on time after 2030 the US will be in bad position for nuclear disarmament talks with China unless Russia fails and loses some of its nuclear force.

Of course trading a handful of submarines to secure a useful vassal like Australia is actually quite cheap [...]

It's impossible. There is no capacity for additional boats and Block V are necessary to fill SSGN gap which mirrors SSBN gap.


Virginia Blocks.jpg
22 688i remain in service with 10 slated for retirement by 2027, newest in ~2031 - all after 35 years. No Virginias are available until then and 688i are too outdated to serve another 15 years, and refueling and refits would be too expensive and would take yard capacity which is already backlogged.

Britain has no capacity and no ability to expand.
 
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