US Financial Crisis/Bailout, China's Role

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pla101prc

Senior Member
bladerunner said:
As in pork barrel politics and horse trading?........ a fact pointed out by Charles Dickens when he toured America
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well those are definitely part of the issue. but i derived my theory from the simple utterance "power corrupts". if you wanna find corruption you gotta look at where the power is. in China the government has a lot of power so the government is corrupted. in the US the gov does not have as much power so if you wanna find corruption you cant just look at gov operations.

China: power transforms into money
USA: money translates into power
 
bladerunner

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
crobato said:
What makes you so sure? It takes a lot of political will, and the problem is that some thinks such implementation is too "Communist", "liberal" or "left wing" or simply for that matter, a degree of government regulation and intervention in a such a scale that Americans are unfamiliar with or would not be comfortable with. Although for other countries, such spartan measures would have been typical. Most countries have tighter fuel and safety regulations than in the US, including Japan, S. Korea, much of Europe, and China at least on the fuel part (safety regs need some improvement). See taxation on fuel consumption or car engine displacement size. The ability to develop such technologies is certainly there in the US, but the ability to implement them socially is another thing. This is related to the ability to develop and implement economical car technologies, and guess which countries came out ahead in this one. I'm pretty sure there would be wide opposition on the further "greening" of the US. On the other side there are vital and strategic technologies, such as nuclear energy and coal liquification which the greens and the left wing are going to severely oppose as well. When is the last time you have a brand new nuclear plant in the US? So you get squeezed between both sides of the aisle.
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Then it looks like both countries are in the same boat. It looks like China's green eco-city project on Chongming Island is stalled, through lack of political will.
 
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Autumn Child

Junior Member
The dongdan project on chongming island is not primarily a govt project. The developer is a large state owned enterprise. I have been doing brand consulting for them and being eco-friendly and green is part of their core strategy in the future. The main reason why the project is slowing down is probably due to financial reason. Housing sales here is lowing down and its natural for the developer and all its stakeholder to delay the project.

As for corruption, I think there are long term corruption but not sure if it is positive. There are people that appear to not corrupt in the short term for the sake of bigger corruption opportunity in the future.

Eliminating corruption is a slow and complicated process. some country make the process legal and more transparent such as lobbying the US. I agree that a "hero" trying to rout all corruption in a single blow will be brought down in no time. However, It is still a noble goal that should be passed on to the next generation in hope that incremental improvements can be made.
 
bladerunner

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Autumn Child said:
The dongdan project on chongming island is not primarily a govt project. The developer is a large state owned enterprise.
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Precisely A state owned enterprise...........= a govt owned company charged to run along commercial lines.

I have no doubt that large projects costing tens of billions, require govt permission. Seeing that it was originally intended to have some of it completed to use as a showpiece in the utilising of "green technology" at the World Fair in 2010 and it has not been adverse to making showpieces in the past at the expense of practicality and the economics of cost eg the Maglev Train, putting the project on hold is probably demonstrating a government backdown.
One must remember the project has had its critics, in suggesting that it was a development for the elite/privileged. The cost of living there would have been above the reach of the common people.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Contrary to the doom and gloom crowd it look more and more that China is the only major economy that will weather the recession with growth intact lOAN IS GROWINGS. REAL ESTATE MARKET STABILIZES IN MAJOR CITY, INCENTIVE FOR AUTO AND STEEL IS IN THE PIPELINE Here is an excellent article by Newsweek titled

CHINA WORK
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Why does China's brand of command capitalism work? The question has long intrigued economists, who tend to cast the state as hopelessly stupid, the market as naturally brilliant. Now that the United States and Europe are moving toward state control—by nationalizing the banking and car industries, and imposing heavy new regulation on the financial industry—the question has a new urgency. China, the poorest and most chaotic big economy, looks like the one best positioned to navigate what may be the worst global downturn in seven decades.

In a time of crisis, China's bureaucrats can pick from traditional market tools, like their Western counterparts, and from the arsenal of command capitalism. Early last year, as the housing market was overheating, they simply ordered bankers to cut back on housing loans: then as home sales began to fall, they offered market incentives, like lower taxes on home purchases. In recent weeks they launched economic rescue efforts similar to those in the west, including a huge ($600 billion) plan to ramp up government spending and big interest-rate cuts. But they've also issued orders that would be seen as improper "intervention" in the West—for example, calling last week on state industries, including steel and construction, to "actively increase" their roles in the economy by buying up new assets at home and abroad.
 
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pla101prc

Senior Member
good points there hendrik
just to add to what you have said. to understand Chinese bureacrats you cannot avoid talkin about technocrats. this is what essetially made today's Chinese government officials differ from others. technocrats do not give a shit about ideology. they utilize strategies that work in real life rather than ones that sound good on the table. obviously assisted by a concentration of power, this system works well for the provincial level and in major cities...while it might foster serious corruption in other local municipalities.
 
bladerunner

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
It appears that the position of real power in the CCP will be people of a engineering background. Has there ever been a social science graduate or lawyer in the politburo?
 
bladerunner

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
I remember coming across an interesting article on a interview with a Chinese engineer who had enviromental concerns, state that once a project is decided upon, the only number crunching and research accepted by the authorities, are ones that support the project, any opposing ones are ignored, hence the problems with the 3 Gorges Dam. He also said the number crunching in determing the amount of water that can be shifted to the north was wrong and a tremendous catastrophe was waiting to happen if such a project eventuated
 
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pla101prc

Senior Member
bladerunner said:
I remember coming across an interesting article on a interview with a Chinese engineer who had enviromental concerns, state that once a project is decided upon, the only number crunching and research accepted by the authorities, are ones that support the project, any opposing ones are ignored, hence the problems with the 3 Gorges Dam. He also said the number crunching in determing the amount of water that can be shifted to the north was wrong and a tremendous catastrophe was waiting to happen if such a project eventuated
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that sounds like something Pan Yue would say...but umm that statement has certain validity to it. but a lot of it is dependent on the circumstance. say if the president wants to do something, he may reject the data but other members of the politburo would still accept it. it depends on the balance of power within that particular government

as for big ass projects like the dam and "south water to the north", even if there are problems, they are something that were ignored by previous leaders who are not really concerned with them because by the time these issues take toll on the environment they are prolly dead. but leaders today cannot turn away from this issue so they are gonna find ways to remedy it, if its so bad that it cant be remedied then the project will prolly be put on a halt til solutions are found or passed on to the next one in line (LOL kinda like bush and obama). that's how politics works everywhere. not particularly in China.
 
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pla101prc

Senior Member
bladerunner said:
It appears that the position of real power in the CCP will be people of a engineering background. Has there ever been a social science graduate or lawyer in the politburo?
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i suggest you take a look at the profiles of CHina's prospective leaders in 2012 lol
 
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