US Financial Crisis/Bailout, China's Role

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Heck if you're worried about inflation, buy TIPS instead of regular treasury bonds. Of course, the CPI calculation is easily manipulated. Like I said before, even though the dollar was losing value through inflation, holding treasury bonds isn't the worst deal out there, there are other currencies with higher (net) depreciation.

The problem with China, as with every other country with high export, is that the US dollar is the default denomination used for international commerce. If China sells a container load of consumer electronics to Australia, China gets the money back in US dollar, not Australian dollar.

So what do you do if you accumulate too much US dollars? You need to find multiple ways of reinvesting it without rocking the boat. Invest too much in one direction, like say converting it to Euros, the dollar price falls and the Euros go up, making it more expensive to buy Euros.

So in effect, what China does is put something here, put something there. The size of its US T-bills holdings have grown but only incrementally and not in proportion with its growth of total foreign reserves. Both Japan and China have about 500 billion plus in US Treasuries, but Japan's total reserves is only over a trillion while China reaches nearly 2 trillion.
 

daveman

New Member
There is still nothing wrong with Treasuries, at least in the US, where when in comes to the dollar this is the most secure place right now. Unlike minted and printed money, they keep earning interest. So you are getting some money back to counter inflation. Treasuries is not the same as direct paper money. The US government actually has to pay interest to China, and that probably amounts to at least over 10 billion a year.

So you don't seem to understand anything at all that I'm not particularly talking about the dollar per se.
:roll: Oh man, this is too much.

Please carry your logic one step further, Crobato, and tell us what currency will US T-BILLS be redeemed with at maturity? And while you're at it, please tell us what you BELIEVE the current inflation rate is in the U.S.?

Interests on U.S. T-BILLS to counter inflation... TIPS.... :roll: it seems I have indeed given you too much credit before.

I have some government bonds from Zimbabwae, you interested? How about Argentina? Haha...
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Huh? You don't seem to know anything about global economics.

Ever figure out that for every export transaction, anywhere in the world, China will get handed over US Dollar bills as a result? When investors come to China, what kind of currency will they be bringing through the banks with them?

As if you think China had a choice to what kind of denomination that comes into the country. She doesn't.

If she decided to change all the US dollars she has to another denomination, guess what, the US dollar drops and that denomination rises. If she changed a lot of US dollars to Euros, the price of Euros will go up, making it more difficult to acquire. And guess what, the Europeans will get pissed off because that will affect their economies negatively.

US Treasuries actually help control the value of the US dollar from falling, and in so doing, preserves the value of the China's foreign reserves. If the US dollar keeps falling down, then Americans have to pay more for their imports, increasing only the outflow of US dollars.

So if you think you're freaking smart, tell me where China should put its 2 trillion forex and I will show you if your ideas are dumb or not.
 

Spike

Banned Idiot
Some interesting insight on China's stimulus package from economist Peter Schiff. Basically he predicts that China will need to start pulling funds from its enormous foreign reserves, concurrent with US attempts to sell even more treasuries to finance upcoming bailout packages. Schiff has been right in the past (watch the youtube link).

China's Stimulus Spells Trouble for U.S.

This week, Asian markets were initially energized by China's announcement of a near $600 billion economic stimulus package for its own economy. Although I have never been a fan of government-fueled stimuli, the relative wisdom of the plan hinges on the source of funds the Chinese government decides to utilize. Their best choice would be the country's nearly $2 trillion in foreign reserves, the largest portion of which is held in U.S. Treasury and agency debt. This pile of dollars, which really amounts to no more than a subsidy for U.S. consumers, does nothing to benefit Chinese citizens.

If it does decide to employ this ocean of cash, China will become a net seller of U.S Treasuries just as the U.S. Government itself will be pushing up its issuance of new Treasury bonds into record territory. With two huge sellers and few major buyers (just about every major creditor nation having problems of their own), the Federal Reserve will become the only reliable customer. As a result, not only will the Fed monetize our own economic stimulus packages, but will be forced to provide the same service to the Chinese.

Most economists feel that China will maintain the status quo by borrowing or printing the funds for their own stimulus while continuing to hoard its trillions of existing U.S. dollars. Most also believe that the Chinese will substantially increase their dollar holdings in order to finance America's never-ending string of bailouts and its ballooning Federal deficit, which is soon to pass $1 trillion annually. These optimists are in for a rude awakening.

The Chinese cannot follow such a course without unleashing intolerable inflation at home. Selling down their vast reserves of U.S. debt and using the proceeds for domestic infrastructure projects (or anything else for that matter) is a vastly superior stimulus mechanism than "lending" to Americans so we keep "buying" their products. When Chinese authorities finally figure this out the United States will suffer the consequences.

As they have in the past my critics will cavalierly dismiss this view. However, as the following compilation of some of my 2006 and 2007 television appearances attests, my economic predictions have proved extremely prescient:
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However, given recent global stock market and currency volatility, some are questioning the wisdom of my investment strategy. I am confident that the short-term effects suffered by foreign stocks and currencies as a result of financial de-leveraging and losses on bad U.S. debt will prove temporary. If so, my market forecasts will ultimately prove just as accurate as my economic predictions. Those who are currently patting themselves on the back for having had the apparent foresight to stay in U.S. dollars will be singing a different tune when the music stops playing.

Sincerely,

Peter Schiff
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Some interesting insight on China's stimulus package from economist Peter Schiff. Basically he predicts that China will need to start pulling funds from its enormous foreign reserves, concurrent with US attempts to sell even more treasuries to finance upcoming bailout packages. Schiff has been right in the past (watch the youtube link).

China appears planning to issue government bonds rather than use its forex. You can only use the forex judiciously as a domestic stimulant but one has to realize it has a drawback, the ability to spur inflation by increasing the money supply. You don't need inflation in China right now, especially when things are down like this. Bonds help soak up the excess liquidity off the economy, that actually may help cushion the effect if you bring in your forex into the domestic economy.

The Chinese cannot follow such a course without unleashing intolerable inflation at home. Selling down their vast reserves of U.S. debt and using the proceeds for domestic infrastructure projects (or anything else for that matter) is a vastly superior stimulus mechanism than "lending" to Americans so we keep "buying" their products. When Chinese authorities finally figure this out the United States will suffer the consequences.

It seems China will reduce its exposure to US debt, just like everyone anyway, but the use of those proceeds for domestic infrastructure projects will be limited and judiciously used.


Another article---

A Win-Win Situation for China
by Sascha Matuszak
October 28, 2008
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China currently stands alone in its ability to weather virtually any storm the banking crisis in the U.S. whips up. With almost $2 trillion in foreign currency reserves, China can afford to be unconcerned about an economic decline in the West that spreads throughout the world, hurting dependent and emerging economies from Pakistan to Panama.

China is not completely insulated from the economic crisis – a slowdown in orders from abroad and a credit crunch at home will hurt the Chinese economy like it hasn't been hurt before – but the difference is preparation. China is prepared, socially and economically, for a slowdown. The U.S. is not.

The calls are beginning for China to step forward as a responsible stakeholder and shore up the currencies and liquidity of the Asian economies and help ease the pressure on European banks as well. China, in turn, assures the world that it is "seriously" considering its options and the proposals of near-desperate bankers hoping that China's 20-year economic rise will help defuse the West's 20-year economic decline.

China is now in a position of power that it may have been enjoying for years, but it is now becoming even more apparent. The talk of China taking over the world has always been a "what if" scenario accompanied by calls for social and political reform and sidelong glances at the U.S., still considered by many to be the preeminent power in the world. The next few years will see more and more nations gathering under the umbrella of Chinese solvency and leaving the Coalition of the Willing(ly Misled) behind.

For now, China is taking care of its own through land reform that should give peasants in China the freedom to "lease their land use rights to other individuals or companies, such as big farm contractors, or to exchange them" and send hordes of country folk flocking toward the cities with their loot looking for fortune. This is the latest in a development, started after Deng Xiao Ping took over in 1979, that will bring the peasants of China into the social fold and eventually urbanize the nation.

China hopes to protect its domestic and international interests through increasing the sophistication of its military. In the final frontier, the U.S. is "apoplectic" over the success of a Chinese space program that has now "changed the game" with the recent Shenzhou manned space mission and the addition of a surveillance satellite that passed within 30 mi. of the International Space Station. According to the Richard Fisher in the Asia Times:

"By the middle of the next decade the PLA [People's Liberation Army] will have a robust surveillance satellite network that will allow a many-times daily target tasking on a global level. It will also have the ability to perform 'information operations' by being able to give a range of clients updates on global U.S. military activities multiple times a day."

China might be getting those rushes of adrenaline one gets when victory is nigh and your opponent lies struggling in your dust trail. America's irresponsible, immoral leadership in the White House, on Wall Street, and by extension throughout the world has finally come home to roost with this economic crisis. Now, with the giant of the 20th century down and in trouble, all of the nations in the world that have suffered under America's benevolent hegemony are looking for somewhere to hide.

This is exactly what the Chinese leadership has hoped and prayed for and most likely expected: the return of China to the center of the world.

Supposed allies of the U.S. are looking to China for help in these days of crisis, with Thailand's deputy prime minister, Olarn Chaipravat, who is attending the Asia-Europe Meeting, stating in the Sydney Morning Herald:

''The message of this initiative is for China to consider whether or not China would open up its banking system and allow the strongest currency in the world, which is the Chinese yuan, relative to anybody, to be the rightful and anointed convertible currency of the world."

Pakistan's President Ali Asif Zardari just finished a visit to China in which he declared that he would be ready to "visit every three months" and that Pakistan's economic and security crises are best solved through cooperation with China, not with the U.S.

The whole Asia-Europe Meeting is a sign of times to come. Nobody trusts U.S. leadership anymore, and despite China's list of thuggish buddies (Burma, Sudan, Iran, North Korea, etc.), protest-strangling Great Firewall, and tendency to sell counterfeit and/or tainted goods, world leaders are choosing China. What an incredible statement about the influence and reputation of the U.S.

The bailouts engineered by the central banks of Europe and the U.S. represent the desperation of thieves caught in the act together, not sympathy and goodwill between two staunch allies. The collapse of Wall Street is the last act in the tragedy of America's fall from leadership in the world.

So What?

What we will see is the decisive triumph of the merchants in the low-level battle over what to do with China. Many of the campaigns to halt human rights abuses in China will migrate to the fringe of U.S. policy, if they haven't already, and the tone will ease.

The U.S. will not be able to confront nations with the arrogance of a world leader and the righteous indignation of a moral compass. For many of us, this is a development that has been a long time coming, but for most of America, it will be something very new.

What Americans lack more than anything is a concept of history. It is absolutely natural and normal and desirable for a nation to go through hardship and struggle and eventual transformation. The era of the American Imperium, dependent on historical ignorance and determined action, is over.

What is needed now is a domestic revival and a more nuanced and intelligent approach to international relations. This means talking with people before we bomb them. This means an emphasis on cooperation, not obedience.

China's sound economy and pragmatic, if despotic, leadership make whatever happens in the coming American election into an opportunity to gain political capital or financial assets. It's a win-win either way.
 
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daveman

New Member
Huh? You don't seem to know anything about global economics.

Ever figure out that for every export transaction, anywhere in the world, China will get handed over US Dollar bills as a result? When investors come to China, what kind of currency will they be bringing through the banks with them?

As if you think China had a choice to what kind of denomination that comes into the country. She doesn't.

If she decided to change all the US dollars she has to another denomination, guess what, the US dollar drops and that denomination rises. If she changed a lot of US dollars to Euros, the price of Euros will go up, making it more difficult to acquire. And guess what, the Europeans will get pissed off because that will affect their economies negatively.

US Treasuries actually help control the value of the US dollar from falling, and in so doing, preserves the value of the China's foreign reserves. If the US dollar keeps falling down, then Americans have to pay more for their imports, increasing only the outflow of US dollars.

So if you think you're freaking smart, tell me where China should put its 2 trillion forex and I will show you if your ideas are dumb or not.

Go read post 20 by the wise and generous Daveman.

Now, as for what you were saying just 2 posts ago but have since shifted course, US T-Bills are just as dangerous to hold as US Dollars because of their LOUSY 4% interest, contrary to what you have claimed as a sufficient compensation for inflation. But don't worry, I won't press this point any harder, I have no interest in embarrasing anybody, least of all you, for your military insights more than make up for what you lack in economics.

One more thing, Crobato, China does have a choice as to what currency it conducts its business in, every sovereign nation has that choice.

Can't say anymore without giving away more pearls, so that's it, you want more information, you'll have to either dig for it or ask nicely. But since you saw all of this many moons ago, I'm sure you'll be fine.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Go read post 20 by the wise and generous Daveman.

Now, as for what you were saying just 2 posts ago but have since shifted course, US T-Bills are just as dangerous to hold as US Dollars because of their LOUSY 4% interest, contrary to what you have claimed as a sufficient compensation for inflation. But don't worry, I won't press this point any harder, I have no interest in embarrasing anybody, least of all you, for your military insights more than make up for what you lack in economics.

One more thing, Crobato, China does have a choice as to what currency it conducts its business in, every sovereign nation has that choice.

Can't say anymore without giving away more pearls, so that's it, you want more information, you'll have to either dig for it or ask nicely. But since you saw all of this many moons ago, I'm sure you'll be fine.


4% lousy? That's way better than 0% which is what you get when you hold cash. As for inflation, go read what TIPS is. Let's put it this way. 500 billion of Treasuries means 20 billion annually. That's 1/3rd of the PLA budget the US is financing for free. China bought 28 Su-30MK2 for one billion.

Excuse me, China has a choice of currency what to trade in? Wrong. The US dollar is the main accepted currency worldwide by default. Do you prefer Argentinian or Philippine Peso? What about Nigerian or East Timor currency? What are you going to use to buy oil and minerals? I'm sorry to say but the suppliers of raw materials also set what kind of denomination they want to use.
 

FugitiveVisions

Junior Member
I believe that dave is correct. The correct implied rate of inflation from the TIPs is an annualized .98%. Do we really believe that inflation is that low? Moreover, the central bank has expanded its central reserves rapidly since Lehman, which doesn't really make a big deal with the velocity of money is low, but when the economy recovers in late '09 or possibly in '10, the fractional reserve banking system is going to be creating a huge amount of commercial bank deposits from that money, which means very big inflationary problems down the road. Even if we chose to ignore the impact of the financial crisis on the funding needs of the government, the projected unfunded liabilities for US social programs such as medicare and social security will topple $50 billion for the next 75 years. Do you really see China loaning to the US hundreds of billions a year to fund for her social welfare system on top of covering the current account deficit?

The US tbills is a claim on a stream of future income dominated in the dollar from the US gov't. The value of the tbill, therefore, is a function of the value of the dollar and the solvency of the US gov't. If the value of the dollar depreciates due to the impact of expansionary monetary policies, the nominal value of your holding is then reduced in real terms. There was a reason Richard Nixon abandoned gold convertibility guys, and it's because the foreigners that were skeptical of the real value of the US dollar began a serious of speculative attacks by trying to convert. Of course, the central bank by that time had printed too many banknotes, thus the reserve/liability ratio was too low, and would get lower as each bar of gold is used to offset the creditor's claim. That's why Nixon abandoned the convertibility.

If at any point, should the Chinese or the Japanese or anyone feel that the 1 trillion or whatever amount of dollars they are holding today would erode in real purchasing power tomorrow, it is possible that they will try to convert that holding into real goods today. So even while the US gov't is no longer committed to converting gold, the private markets remain committed to take the dollar in exchange for things such as medical equipment, which japan desperately needs, and heavy construction equipment, which china needs. By simultanenously shrinking the capital account deficit and the current account surplus, China can still maintain the exchange rate while allow her citizens to derive the fruits of their labor from gov't purchases of medical goods, construction equipment, and other crap from the US.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Do you really see China loaning to the US hundreds of billions a year to fund for her social welfare system on top of covering the current account deficit?

No. I am only explaining China's past actions, not its future actions. And like I said, China has only maintained its Treasury holdings, from 480 billion plus to 515 billion plus in the last four years while its FOREX bloomed from well less than a trillion to nearly two trillion by now (over two if you count Hong Kong's).

At the same time, China cannot suddenly sell off its Treasury holdings just like that, it would be the equivalent of setting off a financial nuclear bomb, which can cause Treasuries to drop, the dollar to drop even faster, financial markets to topple, and the Domino effect means financial tsunami will hit China as well.

So expect to see a gradually trimming down of China holding US debt. Note the word "gradually". That means a net in favor sell offs versus new buys which you can expect China to continue.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
This one is from Pat Buchanan. He's a conservative, but the conservative in the old sense, not what the Republican Party has become, and his criticisms of people like McCain is even sharper than the Democrats. He's more of an isolationist in contrast to the free trade policies Republicans follow as gospel.

November 10, 2008

China's Path to World Power

By Patrick J. Buchanan

For decades, before a heedless congregation, some of us have preached the old Hamiltonian gospel.
Great nations do not have trade partners. They have trade competitors and rivals. Trade surpluses are superior to trade deficits. Tariffs on foreign goods are preferable to taxes on U.S. producers. Manufacturing, not finance, is the muscle of the nation.
Economic independence is vital to political independence.
Following Hamiltonian precepts, the United States grew from 13 rural and agricultural colonies into the greatest industrial power in all history, producing 42 percent of the world's manufactured goods. We were the awe and envy of mankind, the self-sufficient republic, maker of half of the armaments produced by all the nations in World War II.
That is the America we grew up inthat has now vanished.
Chrysler, Ford, perhaps GM, may be dying. Manufacturing has sunk to 10 percent of U.S. employment, a level unseen since before the Civil War. Europeans and Asians are to assemble in Washington this week to impose upon the United States a New World Economic Order like the one we imposed on them at Bretton Woods in 1944.
Such are the fruits of free-trade ideology.
Across the Pacific, a nation that studied how America rose, and watched as America declined, chose a different path. China adopted and pursued a China First policy of economic nationalism.
In July, Charles McMillion of MBG Services testified to the U.S-China Economic and Security Review Commission on China's progress. [PDF]
Beijing began its astonishing rise by devaluing its currency 45 percent in 1994, slashing the prices of exports in half and making imports twice as expensive. As America threw open her market and invited China to come in and capture it, China had erected a Great Wall around her own.
Results: China's worldwide trade surplus in manufactures, $31 billion in 2001, hit $401 billion in 2007, a 1,300 percent increase, and may reach $500 billion in 2008. China has shoved Germany aside to become the world's greatest exporter and now leads the world in the export of manufactured goods to Japan and the European Union, as well as the United States.
While running trade deficits with Asian neighbors like Taiwan, to tie them politically to Beijing, China is running record trade surpluses with the European Union and the United States, making America and the West as dependent upon China for our manufactures as we are on OPEC for our oil.
Chinese auto production has quintupled since 2001. She now produces more cars than Germany and may exceed the United States in 2009. While Chinese auto exports are still heavily in parts, finished cars are coming soon to a dealer near you. The Chinese will likely run the sword through the last standing member of America's Big Three.
Before 2004, China's manufacturing trade surplus with America was largely in textiles and apparel. But, since then, China's rocketing trade surplus in electronics, computers and parts has far exceeded her surplus in textiles and apparel.
China's trade surplus in computers and components rose from $8.1 billion in 2001 to $73.5 billion in 2007. In cellular phones and parts, her worldwide trade surplus grew from $3 billion in 2003 to $50 billion in 2007, and may reach $60 billion by year's end.
China still imports commercial airliners. But she now has a large and growing trade surplus in airplane parts. This follows the pattern in textiles, computers and autos. First, the Chinese learn by assembling parts in factories in China. Then, China begins to produce the parts. Then, China produces the finished products and goes out to capture the world market, while protecting her own by keeping her currency cheap.
On items the Commerce Department categorizes as advanced technology products, America began running a trade deficit for the first time early in the George W. Bush years. China now exports to us four times as much, in dollar value, in ATP items as we sell to Beijing.
As America mothballs the shuttle, relying on Russian rockets to get our astronauts back up to a space station we built, China is putting men into space and heading for the moon.
Since America ushered China into the World Trade Organization in 2002, Beijing's growth rate has been four times that of the United States, accelerating from an average 10 percent of gross domestic product to 12 percent in 2007.
With her immense trade surpluses, China's reserves have surged from $200 billion in 2002 to $2 trillion. Awash in dollars, Beijing now waits patiently, writes McMillion, to cherry-pick the crown jewels of America's industrial empire"patents, talents, natural resources, brands"at fire-sale prices in the global crash.
As America plunges into recession and our industry hollows out, while China is still growing at 9 percent, as the 20th century's greatest creditor nation now borrows from Beijing to pay for booster shots for its sick economy, may we hear once again the Bush-Clinton refrain about how the terrible danger we all face is from "protectionism."

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