UPI: "Taiwan plans to purchase.... two nuclear attack submarines."

T

TinWing

Just Hatched
Registered Member
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UPI said:
Taiwan seeks to boost submarine strength
TAIPEI, Taiwan, Nov. 26 (UPI) -- Taiwan must upgrade its submarine warfare capabilities to prevent China from surrounding the island with its navy, a top Taiwanese defense official says.

Chen Yung-kang, director of the Defense Ministry's Integrated Assessment Office, gave the evaluation as he discussed the navy's planned purchase of eight submarines from the United States, The Taipei Times reported.

The submarines would augment 11 warships Taiwan plans to purchase, including two nuclear attack submarines.

Vice Admiral Tung Hsiang-lung, the navy command headquarters' chief of staff, said Washington requested a down payment of $360 million as a guarantee for the deal, the Times said.
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This report is not unprecedented.

It is a matter of public record that France attempted to sell the cancelled 7th Rubis class SSN to Taiwan, but the offer because the French had inferior nuclear technology that requires frequent and expensive refuelings. Subsequently, the French offered to convert the incomplete SSN to diesel-electric power, but Taiwan again refused it.

There are no international anti-proliferation conventions that would prohibit the transfer of a SSN.

Are there any similar reports from the press in Taiwan?
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

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TinWing said:
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This report is not unprecedented.

There are no international anti-proliferation conventions that would prohibit the transfer of a SSN.
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A couple of LA class boats would certainly up the ante in the Straits, particularly if they were augmented/supplemented by 6 or 8 modern diesel electric boats.

But I seriously doubt the US would transfer nuclear attack subs. Even with the LA class boats, there is simply too much technology that could pose significant risk to other US naval/submarine operations.

Nevertheless, it is interesting...we shall see if this is confirmed and official when the offer is either extended by the US, or if the ROC officially requests it and then what the results will be.
 
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A

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
Up until very recently, there has been no export of nuclear powered attack submarines by any nation. But with Russia's leasing of 2 Akula SSN's to India, this has changed.

I still think it's unlikely that the US would export SSN's, But if the ROCN acquire 2 SSN's from the US, I suspect the Russians would make an offer of Akula-II to the PLAN? Though I'm not sure if the PLAN would want it.
 
G

guitarjeff

New Member
Isn't the SSN an offensive weapon?

I highly doubt the US would approve the sales/transfer of LA class SSNs to Taiwan. The Taiwan Relations Act specifically stipulates that the US is to provide Taiwan with "arms of a defensive character." Giving the Taiwanese SSNs capable of launching Tomahawks would probably raise concerns both abroad and at home.

Besides, proposing the acquisition of a weapon and taking the actual steps in obtaining them are completely different things. Wasn't the proposition to acquire 8 SSKs raised way back in 2001? Five years have passed, and still, the Taiwanese haven't come up with a single dime for them. It seems that the Taiwanese aren't serious about defending their own territory, and they expect the U.S. to dish out the hardware (and lives) when the Chinese invade.
 
S

Scratch

Captain
adeptius
Though I'm not sure if the PLAN would want it.
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I think it depends on how advanced/reliable their own engeneering is here. If Taiwan got SSNs supplied from outside, there would be no reason why China should not aquire foreign (perhaps more advanced) SSN technology, regarding this non proliferation of SSNs you mentioned.

But would it make any difference if the ROCN got diesel-electric or nukler-powered subs ? I mean from a military standpoint it wouldn't, since these subs will only be used around the island. Politicly, ... just don't know, would China be even more pissed off if someone suplied SSNs to ROCN ??

edit: ok subs launching SLCM add a new dimension to that, I don't believe the US will provoke China that much ...
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
guitarjeff said:
Isn't the SSN an offensive weapon?

I highly doubt the US would approve the sales/transfer of LA class SSNs to Taiwan. The Taiwan Relations Act specifically stipulates that the US is to provide Taiwan with "arms of a defensive character." Giving the Taiwanese SSNs capable of launching Tomahawks would probably raise concerns both abroad and at home.
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I also doubt seriously, if the US offered LA class boats, that they would come with the SLCMs. Perhaps the Harpoon launch capability out of the tubes...but no VLS. Perhaps the ROCN would get a couple of the older LA class boats without the VLS...in which case they would not be ADCAP, but they would still be very good by the regions standards.
 
crobato

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
I see it basically as---

The US won't make diesel submarines for Taiwan.

The countries that make diesel submarines won't sell for Taiwan.

Ergo, Taiwan has no choice but to purchase old nuclear subs from the US.
 
G

guitarjeff

New Member
crobato said:
I see it basically as---

The US won't make diesel submarines for Taiwan.

The countries that make diesel submarines won't sell for Taiwan.

Ergo, Taiwan has no choice but to purchase old nuclear subs from the US.
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The Taiwanese ought to try it with Japan. The Harushios are a capable design, and new Oyashios are one of the most advanced SSK designs in the world. It would be in Japan's strategic interest to see Taiwan having a capable submarine force counterbalancing the rising powers of the PLAN in East and South China Seas.
 
B

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
crobato said:
I see it basically as---

The US won't make diesel submarines for Taiwan.

The countries that make diesel submarines won't sell for Taiwan.

Ergo, Taiwan has no choice but to purchase old nuclear subs from the US.
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Right. There are already 12 decommissioned LA calss subs, and some hadn't been cut up yet - if ROCN gets them they'll still need refueling & upgrades.
I don't know how old is this info.:
USS OMAHA was the fifth LOS ANGELES-class attack submarine. Decommissioned and stricken from the Navy list on October 5, 1995, the submarine is now berthed at the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard in Bremerton, Wash., awaiting scrapping.
USS BIRMINGHAM was the sixth LOS ANGELES - class fast attack submarine. The ship was decommissioned and stricken from the Navy list on July 29, 1996, and is now berthed at the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard in Bremerton, Wash, awaiting scrapping.
USS GROTON was the seventh LOS ANGELES - class attack submarine. Decommissioned and stricken from the Navy list on November 7, 1997, the GROTON is currently berthed at the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard, Portsmouth, NH, awaiting disposal through the Nuclear Powered Ship and Submarine Recycling Program.
USS BIRMINGHAM was the eighth submarine in the LOS ANGELES class and the sixth ship of that class decommissioned.
USS BIRMINGHAM was homeported in Pearl Harbor, HI. and is now located at the Pearl Harbor Naval Shipyard, Pearl Harbor, Hi.
USS NEW YORK CITY was the ninth LOS ANGELES class attack submarine and was homeported in Pearl Harbor, HI. Stricken from the Navy list on April 30, 1997, the submarine is scheduled to be disposed of by submarine recycling.
USS INDIANAPOLIS was the tenth LOS ANGELES class attack submarine and was homeported in Pearl Harbor, HI. Decommissioned: December 22, 1998
[no further info.]
USS PHOENIX was the 15th ship in the LOS ANGELES - class of nuclear powered attack submarine. Decommissioned and stricken from the Navy list on July 29, 1998, the PHOENIX is now berthed at the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard in Portsmouth, NH, awaiting scrapping.
USS BALTIMORE was the 17th LOS ANGELES-class submarine. On July 10, 1998, BALTIMORE was decommissioned and stricken from the Navy list after almost 16 years of service. The submarine is scheduled to be scrapped.
USS PORTSMOUTH was the 20th LOS ANGELES class attack submarine and the 15th ship in that class built by Electric Boat in Groton, CT. On June 6, 2002, USS PORTSMOUTH sunk the former USS OKINAWA (LPH 3) during a COMSUBPAC SINKEX off the US west coast. The PORTSMOUTH was last homeported in San Diego, Calif. Decommissioned: September 10, 2004
[no further info.]
USS ATLANTA was the 25th LOS ANGELES - class fast attack submarine and the fifth naval vessel to carry the name. During her career she completed six deployments to the Mediterranean Sea and three deployments to the western Atlantic. USS ATLANTA was the first submarine certified to employ the MK-48 torpedo and both Harpoon and Tomahawk missiles. She was also the first nuclear-powered submarine assigned to directly support an amphibious ready group. Decommissioned and stricken from the Navy list on December 16, 1999, the ATLANTA is now berthed at the Norfolk Naval Shipyard in Portsmouths, Va., awaiting scrapping.
USS SALT LAKE CITY was the 29th LOS ANGELES-class Attack Submarine and was deactivated on October 26, 2005, at San Diego, Calif. [no further info.]
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I'm sure some of them are in very good shape since they didn't have 2nd refuelings, like the USS PORTSMOUTH. Even those with VL tubes for SLCMs can be modified for ASMs or the tubes removed/sealed up- but I don't think any of those were decomissioned yet!.
 
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K

Kongo

Junior Member
The problem to having nuclear subs in the ROCN is far from merely getting them - operating them would be no less daunting a problem. Achieving the kind of stringency and care of operations needed in handling nuclear subs come only from many years of experience. I think that all the expense and trouble to getting nuclear subs and translating them into operational capability isn't worth the payoffs for the ROCN.
 
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