Ukrainian War Developments

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tamsen_ikard

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I just don't understand why Ukraine cannot accept Finland model of accommodating Russian concern for security. While at the same time Finland is free, democratic, and wealthy nation

After the
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of 1947, Finland succeeded in retaining
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and
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, despite the heavy political pressure on Finland's foreign and internal affairs by the Soviet Union.
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were guided by the doctrine formulated by
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, emphasising the necessity to maintain a good and trusting relationship with the Soviet Union.

Finland signed an
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with the Soviet Union in April 1948, under which Finland was obliged to resist armed attacks by "Germany or its allies" against Finland, or against the Soviet Union through Finland, and, if necessary, ask for Soviet military aid to do so. At the same time, the agreement recognised Finland's desire to remain outside
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conflicts, allowing the country to adopt a policy of
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during the
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.


As a consequence, Finland did not participate in the
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and took neutral positions on Soviet overseas initiatives. By keeping very cool relations to
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and western military powers in general, Finland could fend off Soviet pressure for affiliation to the
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.

There is no way Russia will accept Ukraine as Pro western country like Finland with very nominal lip service of Neutrality. Russian never lost the post-soviet states in a war. They kind of broke apart but with an expectation that they will remain in Russian orbit, allow russian culture-language to thrive and remain oriented towards Russia. If that doesn't happen then why would Russia allow places it conquered with million lives lost in ww2 and actually ruled for several centuries to slip away without a war?

For Ukraine its more dear to Russia since the Origin of the Russian people, culture and the Russian state itself is Kievan Rus.

Ukraine was called little Russia during Tsar times. While Belarus is still called "White Russia". Russia itself was called Great Russia. Three parts of a single whole.

Russia firmly believes these countries never fought a war of Independence and never really got full independence. Yes, they are nominally independent, but only because of Russian benevolence with the expectation they will remain under Russian influence.

In a way, this war is the true war of Independence for Ukraine. They got their independence for Free last. Now its time to really fight for it and establish it.

Russia will only allow an independent Ukraine that is a firm Russian ally just like Belarus with full military co-operation and interoperability. There will have to be strong pro-russian cultural stance with Russian culture, language and media promoted. Essentially how Canada is for US. A firm, completely loyal ally with the same culture.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
1) No Russian minority to speak of resided in Finland.
2) Ukraine wasn't offered a similar deal for whatever reason.

I agree it would have been the better solution.
Well Finland like Ukraine was formerly part of Russian empire. The difference was Finland is willing to accommodate Russia concern with treaty of friendship and live by it. And built a strong economy and prosperity. Whereas Ukraine though rich in mineral and Agriculture with highly educated work force and modern industry and infrastructure failed to develop her economy. I don't know why?. So they think their salvation is EU and Nato. Wrong choice and bring disaster we witness today
 

james smith esq

Senior Member
Registered Member
French Defense Minister: The aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle will take up a position in the Mediterranean for reconnaissance missions over the Baltic countries

Does anyone else find this suspect? Why position in the Mediterranean in order to patrol the Baltic? This is from liveuamap, which seems to be a mixture of pro-Ukraine and fairly accurate posts.
 
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tamsen_ikard

Senior Member
Registered Member
Well Finland like Ukraine was formerly part of Russian empire. The difference was Finland is willing to accommodate Russia concern with treaty of friendship and live by it. And built a strong economy and prosperity. Whereas Ukraine though rich in mineral and Agriculture with highly educated work force and modern industry and infrastructure failed to develop her economy. I don't know why?. So they think their salvation is EU and Nato. Wrong choice and bring disaster we witness today

Finland was always under Sweden for ages. Only became part of Russian empire very recently. Plus it has a different language family with a different culture as well.

Finally, Finland fought with The mighty Soviet Union at their peak and forced them to sign treaties. They gained Russian Respect in a sense to remain independent. But even Finland during Soviet times was very different from the very Pro-western Pro EU Finland today. Today's Finland is just paying lip service in terms of Neutrality and not actually Neutral.

I expect if Russia can takeover Ukraine and withstand Western sanctions, rebuild its Military power. They will attack Finland if they try for Nato membership. Even now, an Attack on Finland cannot be ruled out. But with Russian military already so busy in Ukraine, they will probably Threaten to Nuke Finland rather than allow them into Nato.

As long Finland or Sweden are not part of Nato, they can be nuked. Non-nuke states are actually extremely vulnerable to Nuke states. Its just there is a lot of Taboo when it comes to using Nukes. But I think those times are changing. Russia is getting desperate due to Western pressure and it will have to resort to its full scale power to survive.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
There is no way Russia will accept Ukraine as Pro western country like Finland with very nominal lip service of Neutrality. Russian never lost the post-soviet states in a war. They kind of broke apart but with an expectation that they will remain in Russian orbit, allow russian culture-language to thrive and remain oriented towards Russia. If that doesn't happen then why would Russia allow places it conquered with million lives lost in ww2 and actually ruled for several centuries to slip away without a war?

For Ukraine its more dear to Russia since the Origin of the Russian people, culture and the Russian state itself is Kievan Rus.

Ukraine was called little Russia during Tsar times. While Belarus is still called "White Russia". Russia itself was called Great Russia. Three parts of a single whole.

Russia firmly believes these countries never fought a war of Independence and never really got full independence. Yes, they are nominally independent, but only because of Russian benevolence with the expectation they will remain under Russian influence.

In a way, this war is the true war of Independence for Ukraine. They got their independence for Free last. Now its time to really fight for it and establish it.

Russia will only allow an independent Ukraine that is a firm Russian ally just like Belarus with full military co-operation and interoperability. There will have to be strong pro-russian cultural stance with Russian culture, language and media promoted. Essentially how Canada is for US. A firm, completely loyal ally with the same culture.
Well they never try it Finland was part of Russian empire since 1807 She gained independence during Bolshevik revolution But Finland is accommodating to Russian concern with Treaty of friendship. Ukraine was friendly with Russia during Viktor Yanukovych reign and Russia has no problem with Ukraine. But it is all change after orange revolution and Maidan insurrection. Since then Ukraine just antagonize the Russian and has obsession with Joining EU and Nato as solution for their fail economy
 

ironborn

Junior Member
Registered Member
French Defense Minister: The aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle will take up a position in the Mediterranean for reconnaissance missions over the Baltic countries

Does anyone else find this suspect? Why position in the Mediterranean in order to patrol the Baltic?
Grandstanding most likely. Since AC over 10,000 tons aren't allow into Black Sea, and probably doesn't really have a supply port facility available in baltic to service the AC.
 

Corona

Junior Member
Registered Member
Decent & civilized people doing decent & civilized stuff :
In Germany a Russian store was attacked. The glass was broken and the shop windows were doused with paint. How can they blame innocent shop keepers for what is happening in Ukraine?


What they aren't pals any more!
US Considers Sanctions On India After It Abstained To Vote On Russia.


Tashkent Capital of Uzbekistan :
In Tashkent it appears that some are giving open support for the current Russian operations in Ukraine.

 
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