Ukrainian War Developments

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Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
What Russia shares with the West is blond hair and blue eyes. Do you think that's enough?

Whether Russia is part of the West is a question of Western self-perception, which is very wonky...

e.g. The 'West' also thinks 'Europe' is a continent and humans can have "white" skin...

For reference, this is what the color "white" looks like:

1643680791189.png

And this is what the European 'continent' looks like:

Europe_Asia_transcontinental.png
 

Phead128

Captain
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Is taking over this land the only way China could have access to the water?
Demand 10km strip of land from North Korea to access Sea of Japan as compensation for Korean War debt?
China has no interest in any Russian territory.
??? Trans-Amur Baikal is former Qing Chinese territory, so China isn't interested in any Russian territory, it's interested in originally Chinese territory.
The Chinese-Russian relationship today is extremely mature and stable.
Like I said, this applied to Sino-Soviet relationship between 1949-1960. Things can change.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Demand 10km strip of land from North Korea to access Sea of Japan as compensation for Korean War debt?

??? Trans-Amur Baikal is former Qing Chinese territory, so China isn't interested in any Russian territory, it's interested in originally Chinese territory.

Like I said, this applied to Sino-Soviet relationship between 1949-1960. Things can change.
Wow, all of 11 years. If we only count Putin's tenure, the current relationship is already twice that age and growing stronger by the day. In truth, all through the '90s China worked on rebuilding its relationship with Russia during Jiang's tenure, so add another 10 years on top of that.

Hey, maybe you can cut into some of Comrade Chang's action and publish The Coming Collapse of the China-Russia Alliance.
 

yungho

Junior Member
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Do you think it is natural for 120 million Dongbeiren to be landlocked from access to Sea of Japan, while 120 million Russians from 8000 miles away have direct access to Sea of Japan? This is the precise reason why a Sino-Russian alliance will never work, because of Siberia and the natural contradiction from the Trans-Amur-Baikal annexations from Qing-era. As Putin said: "If we don't make every real effort [to invest in Siberia], then the indigenous Russian population will soon speak mostly Chinese, Korean, and Japanese." Putin recognizes the weakening demographic factors in Siberia compared to their neighbors.

This isn't even considering that climate change would unleash tremendous fertile lands and natural resources in Siberia and unlock the highly coveted Northern Sea Route. But yes, let's dilute it to merely "identity politics". It's not that simple.
Agreed though I don't think Russia is worried about a surge of Chinese population, since the northeast is bleeding people.

The Xi and his predecessors may consider issue settled, but who knows what the future holds. Chinese nationalists will continue to remember that annexed land and as you said, it simply doesn't make sense for Heilongjiang to not have access to the Sea of Japan. That access is far more valuable to China than Russia who has that entire eastern stretch. I'm sure, however, Korea and Japan will want to get involved too.

Obviously Taiwan and the SCS are far more important, but I think the some Russians and Chinese know that the northeast could be next on the list.
 

Phead128

Captain
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Moderator - World Affairs
Hey, maybe you can cut into some of Comrade Chang's action and publish The Coming Collapse of the China-Russia Alliance.

Bro, China and Russia does not have an alliance, nor will they ever enter into an alliance.

Also, Comrade Chang and I have one thing in common: a broken clock is right twice a day. Except I'm not as stupid as Comrade Chang to make a exact date of collapse, all I'm saying it is inevitable that there is no permanent friends, only permanent interests, and this applies to Russia-China strategic partnership. Whether it's 100 or 200 years later, who knows, maybe Comrade Chang knows.

Agreed though I don't think Russia is worried about a surge of Chinese population, since the northeast is bleeding people.

The Xi and his predecessors may consider issue settled, but who knows what the future holds. Chinese nationalists will continue to remember that annexed land and as you said, it simply doesn't make sense for Heilongjiang to not have access to the Sea of Japan. That access is far more valuable to China than Russia who has that entire eastern stretch. I'm sure, however, Korea and Japan will want to get involved too.

Obviously Taiwan and the SCS are far more important, but I think the some Russians and Chinese know that the northeast could be next on the list.

100% agree. It's a historical anomaly that Dongbei's 120 million is landlocked and China has zero access to Sea of Japan. It's patently absurd. I also agree that Taiwan and SCS is far more important for now, but who knows what the future can bring.
 
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ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
China and Russia does not have an alliance, nor will they ever enter into an alliance.
Actually, they do. What China and Russia are is what was historically called "allies." What's called allies today in the US context is what used to be called vassals. What China and Russia mean when they say they have no "alliance" is that there's no vassalage in their relationship.
all I'm saying it is inevitable that there is no permanent friends, only permanent interests.
That's a ridiculous platitude and it's also demonstrably false. The Anglo world so reviled here sure seems something like permanent friends. If what you said was true then Australia would align with China and not America.

Before you give some answer about common culture, that's not the point. The point is that principle is false and all it does is demonstrate that whoever spouts it needs to think more deeply about geopolitical issues.
but who knows what the future can bring.
While we're bouncing around "who knows" possibilities we pulled from the aether, I'd like to propose that Russia and China will be the closest besties there ever were. Way closer than the US and Britain because hey, who knows what the future can bring.
 

Phead128

Captain
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Moderator - World Affairs
That's a ridiculous platitude and it's also demonstrably false. The Anglo world so reviled here sure seems something like permanent friends. If what you said was true then Australia would align with China and not America.
Why haven't you learned from Qing-era unequal treaties and Sino-Soviet Split? The concept of "No permanent friends, only permanent interests" is demonstrately proven throughout the Sino-Russia relationship spanning centuries, much more than merely since 1989.
Before you give some answer about common culture, that's not the point. The point is that principle is false and all it does is demonstrate that whoever spouts it needs to think more deeply about geopolitical issues.
Like I said, China and Russia is an "Axis of Convenience" because of a mutual enemy (US). There is no ideological commonality, shared language/culture, or shared history as the basis of an "Alliance". We tried "anti-Americanism"-based alliance and it ended horribly.
While we're bouncing around "who knows" possibilities we pulled from the aether, I'd like to propose that Russia and China will be the closest besties there ever were. Way closer than the US and Britain because hey, who knows what the future can bring.
Identifying Trans-Amur Baikal as a basis for future frictions and barriers for the sustainability of future alliance is pretty reasonable. I don't see how any geopolitical analyst can selectively cherry-pick the good moments but ignore the underlying bad moments.

Like I said, China should prepare for a situation where it's overwhelmingly more powerful and richer than Russia, stoking Russian perceptions and insecurities over Siberia, and pre-empt a Western-attempt to "Reverse Nixon" strategy. China should prepared to counter it.
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
This has started to go around in circles and I'm not doing that. I'm done with this.

Your "vision" is of a China run by two-digit IQ people, and that's not happening in my lifetime or any timescale I can comprehend.
Only two-digit IQ people will dismiss the possibility of "Reverse Nixon" strategy against China. Just hating US isn't enough, Sino-Soviet split demonstrated this.
 

clockwork

Junior Member
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Not really, it's rooted in the Sino-Soviet Split, despite your "anti-Americanism" glue and mutual shared ideology (read: Communism).

It's not China's self-proclaimed 'true' intentions, but rather what the perception by opposing party that ultimately matters. For instance, China perceived USSR as a "revisionist power" and "existential threat", and I'll bet a $99 dollars that USSR would deny those claims and claim China was the "reckless power" and "aggressor". Perception by the opposing party is ultimately what matters and drove the Sino-Soviet Split, not what one side proclaims to be their 'true' intent.

If there is an enormous economic and military disparity between China and Russia, then it's entirely possible, in fact, likely that Russia will percieve China as a security threat to Siberia, due to declining Russia population, climate change rendering natural resources more accessible, and opening of the Northern Sea Route between Europe and Asia. Heck, anyone with half-a-brain seeing 120 million Dongbeiren landlocked without access to Sea of Japan as anomaly in world history.
There's an obvious counterexample to your hypothesis: Canada and the US. It's very similar: Canada has plenty of land and natural resources for the taking, shares a long border, has a vast economic and military power disparity, yet relations have been friendly for nearly a century, the US is content to access Canada's resources peacefully through trade, and there's virtually no threat perception. The main differences with the China-Russia case would be that they obviously share a much greater degree of cultural and racial homogeneity, and the US has a much lower population than China (will have) and more land/resources of its own, so it has less need (actual and perceived) to encroach on Canada. Therefore, I think your scenario is not inevitable, because I don't see why the Sino-Russian relationship couldn't turn out much like the Canadian-US one, but it developing more towards your scenario is indeed a very real possibility too. Though I think even if the Russians become uncomfortable with and feel threatened by China, if the power disparity is sufficiently large, they might have no choice but to pursue friendly relations anyway, just as Mexico and Canada have no option but to be amicable with the US.
 
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