Ukrainian War Developments

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SampanViking

The Capitalist
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This is a giant game of Chess. And just as in Chess, you don’t always want to push your pawns as far forward as you can just because your opponent isn’t actively pushing back to stop you from doing so. Overreaching can create liabilities and costs disportioncate to any gains made.

What would be the tactical or strategic valuing in re-taking the former Russian parts of Ukraine? Would said benefits outweighs the costs of the inevitable economic sanctions?

I think Putin is content to just kick the door open and let the draft in without actually stepping over the precipice himself.

That in itself has value as it must be pretty moral sapping for the Ukrainians to be staring down the barrel of a Russian invasion and only get thoughts and prayers from their supposed saviours in Washington and NATO. Do you really want to be cannon fodder for such people who don’t want to have your back when the chips are down?

Russian value is maximised by pushing as far as possible without an invasion, because an actual invasion will force NATO and America into a reaction. Whereas right now their continued inaction is doing them no end of damage.
All of which is very true.
The trouble though is that it assumes that the other side are playing it straight
What happens if the US claims that Russia is invading and starts to impose penalties as it if were, even if it actually is not?
What if the Ukrainian forces start fighting the Donbass militia and claim they are fighting the Russian army?
That actually is a stated and legitimate trigger for actual Russian intervention and so it would all rebound on Russia if they fail to respond.
What does have Russia to gain indeed?
What also does the US have to lose?
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
All of which is very true.
The trouble though is that it assumes that the other side are playing it straight
What happens if the US claims that Russia is invading and starts to impose penalties as it if were, even if it actually is not?
What if the Ukrainian forces start fighting the Donbass militia and claim they are fighting the Russian army?
That actually is a stated and legitimate trigger for actual Russian intervention and so it would all rebound on Russia if they fail to respond.
What does have Russia to gain indeed?
What also does the US have to lose?

But why would America or Ukraine actively provoke the Russians to invade?

This whole thing started because Washington tipped their hand and showed Putin how desperately they want to avoid a war with Russia. This is because the new strategy directive in Washington is to drive a wedge between Russia and China and try to do a reverse Nixon and make Russia their new frontline cannon fodders against China in the name of white power unity. Can’t do that if they are fighting a war against Russia.

In a way, I think Putin is also looking to safeguard against fellow white power enthusiasts falling for that trick within Russia itself.

I think the primary aim is to squeeze NATO as hard as possible without triggering war to further expose their weakness to disenfranchise former Soviet republics who joined primarily on the promise of NATO being a credible deterrence against Russia.

Secondary objective is to sabotage aforementioned US plan to drive a wedge between Russia and China aimed both at the US and within Russia itself.

Tertiary objective is to profit from artificially inflated gas prices during the winter usage peak.

Finally backstop fallback option is going hot in Ukraine and seizing some territory. But this is very much a worst case scenario for Russia since doing so would undermine many of its higher objectives above and incur significant military, economic and diplomatic costs.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
But why would America or Ukraine actively provoke the Russians to invade?
Ukraine doesn't has any value for the USA, but if Russia occupy it militayr with them, and damage its economy with a war next to its border then why not ? There is no price that the Ukrainans can' pay to make it possible for the USA to earn five more dollars.
This whole thing started because Washington tipped their hand and showed Putin how desperately they want to avoid a war with Russia. This is because the new strategy directive in Washington is to drive a wedge between Russia and China and try to do a reverse Nixon and make Russia their new frontline cannon fodders against China in the name of white power unity. Can’t do that if they are fighting a war against Russia.

In a way, I think Putin is also looking to safeguard against fellow white power enthusiasts falling for that trick within Russia itself.
Exactly which action of the USAtargeted to drive a wedge between Russia and China ?


Up to this point the USA just mindlesly try to push both of them to oblivion and full contaiment behind they borders.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Impossible. Russia != USSR. In case of large scale conventional conflict the best case scenario for Russia would be a short military conflict for 3-4 weeks and then go to the negotiations table. They won't be able to keep it going for any longer. Baltic countries are indeed a case lost if Russia will attack them as there's no possible way to stop the there but if Poland would be able to build up depth and stop the first attack it would probably become a stalemate until reinforcements would come and then of course Russia won't stand to the combined military might of NATO combined forces.

Laughable. You believe this? We are in the XXIst century. Even back in WW2 Poland could not do defense in depth what makes you think they would now? Do you think this is the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth and they are going to use Winged Hussars in mobile attrition tactics in their vast plains? We aren't going at the speed of horses anymore. They have no geographic features to fallback on. Just air strikes alone would destroy the Polish army in days. Even the German Army has lots of hardware on paper but most of it is either mothballed or not in active duty. It would needs months if not years of maintenance to get it back to work. The only thing the Germans could do would be to destroy their own infrastructure to stall the Russian advance. In the case of Poland even that wouldn't work since it is so flat and featureless you could just bypass the transportation network completely.

I think that in case of absolutely (which is impossible nowadays, it's not 1940's) surprise attack through Belarus towards Poland and Baltics (becasue that's the only possible scenario) France, Italy and GB will be able to mobilize and send reinforcements within 4 weeks. US forces are in place but largely fragmented. And that's reason why so many within NATO propose change towards more fast-paced response reforms in NATO countries rather than building up expeditionary forces for conflicts in Africa (like France is doing for a long time in recent years for example).

They have been talking about this for the better part of a decade and still little has happened. The UK even had plans to retire their tank force completely remember?

Yeah, sure. Thanks to 4 weeks war they will be eating only kartoshki and bliny for the next 20 years...

If the alternative would be to have a permanent hostile force on its borders they would probably not mind eating grass.

German industries to be exact. Poland plans to diversify and become a gas-hub for countries in central Europe with gas from Norway and LNG and if I remember it well they want to keep Russian gas at max 20% of their needs and they're building gas pipes towards East (Ukraine) and further south. But German industries of course have higher demands for gas and they can't do 100% with Russian gas and that's why we have within EU and NATO that stems from this simple fact.

Poland is retarded. Their "gas hub" policy involves siphoning off gas from the pipeline that goes from Norway to Germany. They are not adding any new gas flows to the EU energy mix. It is merely shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic. As for LNG try doing the math and see if that can ever replace the Russian supply. It can't. Especially with gas production in the Netherlands plummeting and the Germans closing down their remaining nuclear power plants this year. The Baltics are already stepping up their energy imports from Russia and Belarus.

But why would America or Ukraine actively provoke the Russians to invade?

The US is doing even better. Preemptive sanctions. This means they can sanction Russia for little else but hot air and now they are blaming the Russians for wanting to do a coup in Ukraine - which is basically what the US did in 2014. It looks like the US is all about deflection and projection.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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But why would America or Ukraine actively provoke the Russians to invade?

This whole thing started because Washington tipped their hand and showed Putin how desperately they want to avoid a war with Russia. This is because the new strategy directive in Washington is to drive a wedge between Russia and China and try to do a reverse Nixon and make Russia their new frontline cannon fodders against China in the name of white power unity. Can’t do that if they are fighting a war against Russia.

In a way, I think Putin is also looking to safeguard against fellow white power enthusiasts falling for that trick within Russia itself.

I think the primary aim is to squeeze NATO as hard as possible without triggering war to further expose their weakness to disenfranchise former Soviet republics who joined primarily on the promise of NATO being a credible deterrence against Russia.

Secondary objective is to sabotage aforementioned US plan to drive a wedge between Russia and China aimed both at the US and within Russia itself.

Tertiary objective is to profit from artificially inflated gas prices during the winter usage peak.

Finally backstop fallback option is going hot in Ukraine and seizing some territory. But this is very much a worst case scenario for Russia since doing so would undermine many of its higher objectives above and incur significant military, economic and diplomatic costs.
Again quite, I would agree with you. But withdrawing staff from an Embassy is a crazy thing to do just for a stunt. Its as near as drawing a weapon as you can get. If it means nothing it is a reckless and stupid act.
 

reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
A classic input from another expert. If you're so sure about coming years in the world wide economy tell us more details so all of us will get rich in the process!
All you have to do is to look at how many countries like Turkey, Iran and Western Europe behave towards the U.S. today compared to twenty years ago. Even the Philippines, South Korea and Singapore are hedging their bets. Add to that places like Syria and Afghanistan. There is a dramatic drop in the power of the U.S. as well as Western Europe versus the world if you just compared them from 20 years ago. These are all observable facts on the ground. I don't see this trend reversing itself.
 

reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
All of which is very true.
The trouble though is that it assumes that the other side are playing it straight
What happens if the US claims that Russia is invading and starts to impose penalties as it if were, even if it actually is not?
What if the Ukrainian forces start fighting the Donbass militia and claim they are fighting the Russian army?
That actually is a stated and legitimate trigger for actual Russian intervention and so it would all rebound on Russia if they fail to respond.
What does have Russia to gain indeed?
What also does the US have to lose?
You have to look at what is the objective of the U.S. and the costs of the next steps. The biggest reasons I see why the U.S. need to push Ukraine into this situation is to control Europe and to either delay or stop the Nordstream pipeline from going operational. That objective is already accomplished.
Europe is very reluctant to go down the path of sanctions because that causes a lot of pain for them. If actual sanctions with bite (not some symbolic stuff) go down, it would actually weaken the U.S. position. It would hurt the Russians no doubt, but Europe would be highly incentivized to set up a separate payment channels with Russia to get around swift. The position of the dollar would be eroded. At the end, the U.S. position would weaken against China, which is the main competitor. I don't think it is in the U.S. interest to actually carry out sanctions. False flag only works if it is in your interest to go down that path and you just needed an excuse.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
German industries to be exact.
German industries = EU industries. Germany is the workhorse of Europe


A classic input from another expert. If you're so sure about coming years in the world wide economy tell us more details so all of us will get rich in the process!
Eh, it should be relative decline. In absolute terms, Western economies are still growing


I wanted to click Like as it all sounded really well and I agree with 90% of your post but of course you had to include your trademark 'victimization' card as always
What's strange in that quote? As with most countries, Russia also has its fair share of racists and delusional elites who think that the West smh considers them "family". There is plenty of material you can search about how racism drives policy
 
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