Ukrainian War Developments

Status
Not open for further replies.

Richard Santos

Captain
Registered Member
This will be my last reply on this particular subject, not because I don't want to continue, but just because I don't want to get banned or disciplined from straying too far from the topic of the thread.

The recent consensus among historians is that the Soviet Union lost over 25 million people in World War II, almost 15% of its population. These enormous losses were one of the critical background factors for the fall of the Soviet Union four and a half decades later, because they sapped so much of its economic potential. The fall of the French, British, and Soviet empires should be understood as a coherent arc of post-war imperial collapse, brought on by sheer economic exhaustion from the most destructive war in human history by far (almost 80 million people died from World War II if you include those who died from famines and diseases caused by the war). Yes of course there's Gorbachev and his mess, rising nationalism that couldn't be contained by the official communist ideology, Brezhnev idiotically deciding to spend almost 20% of Soviet GDP on the military, and numerous other factors. All of these contributed to the ultimate collapse, but only because they operated in the context of a vastly weakened Soviet empire. By contrast, the 15 million Chinese that died represented less than 3% of the country's population. The hit to China in relative terms was much smaller, although the absolute number are still jarring.
in my opinion, the contribution of the demographic factor to the fall of soviet union is greatly oversold by a relatively small group of revisionist historians with a clear anti-soviet axe to grind. They largely wish to deny the contribution of improvements in management, tactical, strategic and logistic to the militaey success of the soviet union during second part of WWII. Instead they prefer to portray these success as not really successes of any skill, but merely ultimately self defeating profligacy with russian lives.

Regardless of whether there is any merit to their view, it is clear that had the soviets not fought and won a bloody war with Germany and in the process extended her territorial control right into central Europe, the soviet union stuck inside her 1939 borders would never have become a global power at all. Instead she would have remained a regional power broadly similar to Russia now.
 

Lapin

Junior Member
Registered Member
Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, flies like a duck...it aint a pig, thats for sure.

Now you not being an american but sounding just like one is more of an indictment of your own persona than of any of US for assuming.

You have spent the entire thread either defending Nazi Germany or nuancing US systematic crimes because someone, somewhere, did something sligthly similar once.


Anyway, this is the face of genuine shock, obviously /s

You, Sheogorath, have shown that you are a shameless pathological liar.
You tell whopping lies about what I write in ways similar to the Russian propaganda that you apparently admire.

"You have spent the entire thread either defending Nazi Germany or nuancing US systematic crimes
because someone, somewhere, did something sligthly similar once."

Can you QUOTE IN CONTEXT where I allegedly did that? (Cite the exact words and the post's location in the thread.)

Many writers here apparently like to believe that Russian propaganda always tells the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
nothing but the truth. Many writers here keep showing their eagerness to add their big lies to those of Russian propaganda.

Some writers here have amply shown (such as by advocating Russia's nuking Ukraine) that they are at least as morally
despicable as the Americans or Nazis whom they profess to hate. I would add that their apparently idolized USSR was
an enthusiastic partner of the Third Reich for almost two years (1939-1941). The USSR cooperated with Germany in
carving up Poland and was a major supplier of vitally needed natural resources to the German war machine.
 

GodRektsNoobs

Junior Member
Registered Member
There is also plenty of time for Biden regime to dig up incriminating dirt on Trump's tax fraud, corruption, and instigating insurrection which will further disqualify him among independents.
Every little bit of dirt has already been dug up. What good did it do for the Democrats? Did it help Biden's ratings?
Yea, the leader of the Republican party, Mitch McConnell famously came out and said Jan 6th was a 'violent insurrection' which he provoked in a clean break with Trump, so he probably prefers DeSantis or Pence or even Ted Cruz over Trump. A civil war is brewing in the Republican party.
Yeah, keep dreaming. You are pretending that these folks actually have morals, and aren't slimy opportunists whose stance change every 5 minutes based on who's popular. The only stance these guys have is that Democrats can't win - period. And they'll do anything for that goal.
 

Lapin

Junior Member
Registered Member
This will be my last reply on this particular subject, not because I don't want to continue, but just because I don't want to get banned or disciplined from straying too far from the topic of the thread.

The recent consensus among historians is that the Soviet Union lost over 25 million people in World War II, almost 15% of its population. These enormous losses were one of the critical background factors for the fall of the Soviet Union four and a half decades later, because they sapped so much of its economic potential. The fall of the French, British, and Soviet empires should be understood as a coherent arc of post-war imperial collapse, brought on by sheer economic exhaustion from the most destructive war in human history by far (almost 80 million people died from World War II if you include those who died from famines and diseases caused by the war). Yes of course there's Gorbachev and his mess, rising nationalism that couldn't be contained by the official communist ideology, Brezhnev idiotically deciding to spend almost 20% of Soviet GDP on the military, and numerous other factors. All of these contributed to the ultimate collapse, but only because they operated in the context of a vastly weakened Soviet empire. By contrast, the 15 million Chinese that died represented less than 3% of the country's population. The hit to China in relative terms was much smaller, although the absolute number are still jarring.

"The fall of the French, British, and Soviet empires should be understood as a coherent arc of post-war imperial collapse,
brought on by sheer economic exhaustion from the most destructive war in human history ..."

That certainly would not apply to the 'Soviet empire' because the USSR could not have gained control over most of
eastern Europe without the Second World War taking place.

Let's suppose that, in early 1939, Stalin had decided to expand the USSR by invading Poland and Romania (which were allies)
and then Germany, How far would RKKA have advanced? Given that RKKA struggled to overrun tiny Finland in 1939-40,
I doubt that the USSR could have defeated an eastern European coalition supported by Germany.

"... the 15 million Chinese that died represented less than 3% of the country's population."

That seems a dubious calculation. China's war deaths are very hard, if not impracticable, to determine for various reasons, ranging
from a lack of surviving written records to issues about to what extent to count civilian deaths by hunger or disease as war-related.
When, in order to delay a Japanese advance, Chiang Kai-shek ordered that the dikes be cut to start a flood, which may have
resulted in hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilian deaths, should they not be counted as war-related?
In my view, China's war-related deaths could be much higher than 15 million.
 

Lapin

Junior Member
Registered Member
Not every Ukrainian man is eager to fight in this war.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

"Ukraine’s Draft Dodgers Face Guilt, Shame and Reproach"

"Vova Klever, a young, successful fashion photographer from Ukraine’s capital, Kyiv, did not see himself in this war.
“Violence is not my weapon,” he said.

So shortly after Russia invaded Ukraine in late February and Ukraine prohibited men of military age from leaving the country,
Mr. Klever sneaked out to London.

His mistake, which would bring devastating consequences, was writing to a friend about it.
The friend betrayed his trust and posted their conversation on social media. It went viral, and Ukrainians all over the internet
exploded with anger and resentment."

"Thousands of Ukrainian men of military age have left the country to avoid participating in the war, according to records from
regional law enforcement officials and interviews with people inside and outside Ukraine. Smuggling rings in Moldova, and possibly
other European countries, have been doing a brisk business. Some people have paid up to $15,000 for a secret night-time ride out
of Ukraine, Moldovan officials said.

The draft dodgers are the vast exception. That makes it all the more complicated for them — morally, socially and practically.
Ukrainian society has been mobilized for war against a much bigger enemy, and countless Ukrainians without military experience
have volunteered for the fight. To maximize its forces, the Ukrainian government has taken the extreme step of prohibiting
men 18 to 60 from leaving, with few exceptions.

All this has forced many Ukrainian men who don’t want to serve into taking illegal routes into Hungary, Moldova and Poland and
other neighboring countries. Even among those convinced they fled for the right reasons, some said they felt guilty and ashamed."

"Ukrainian politicians have threatened to put draft dodgers in prison and confiscate their homes. But within Ukrainian society,
even as cities continue to be pummeled by Russian bombs, the sentiments are more divided.
A meme recently popped up with the refrain, “Do what you can, where you are.” It’s clearly meant to counter negative feelings
toward those who left and assure them they can still contribute to the war effort."

"Moldova has become the favorite trap door.
Moldova shares a nearly 800-mile border with western Ukraine. And unlike Hungary, Poland, Romania and Slovakia, Moldova
is not part of the European Union, which means it has significantly fewer resources to control its frontiers. It is one of Europe’s
poorest countries and has been a hub
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and organized crime.

Within days of the war erupting, Moldovan officials said, Moldovan gangs posted advertisements on Telegram, a popular
messaging service in Eastern Europe, offering to arrange cars, even minibuses, to spirit out draft dodgers."

"Volodymyr Danuliv is one of them. He refuses to fight in the war, though it’s not the prospect of dying that worries him,
he said. It is the killing. “I can’t shoot Russian people,” said Mr. Danuliv, 50.
He explained that his siblings had married Russians and that two of his nephews were serving in the Russian Army — in Ukraine."

"Mr. Danuliv, a businessman from western Ukraine, said he wanted no part in the war. When asked if he feared being ostracized
or shamed, he shook his head. “I didn’t kill anyone. That’s what’s important to me,” he said. “I don’t care what people say.”
 

delta115

Junior Member
Registered Member
Probably the craziest vid I've seen so far in this war. That's instantly 20+ killed.

Wonder what the context was, can't imagine Ukrainian troops being that relaxed if they were really that close to the front lines. Not to mention they didn't see or hear a tank right beside them.
Ukranian : Probably thought they are in safe area and assume enemy tank wouldn't come that close. So, they though that Tank is captured.

Russian : Seem to went too deep into frontline. Probably assume Unkranian try to surrender when they are not disperse after Tank approach from distance. Given that situation, thier only choice is to open fire. They can't just back out or go past them.

Seem this kind of situation are common than we saw. There also Russian scout who manage to capture Tank by loose their camo uniform and get in close.

PS. Round probably go right through some of those troops. Pretty sure I saw pink mist...
 

Lapin

Junior Member
Registered Member
Not every Ukrainian man is eager to fight in this war.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

"Ukraine’s Draft Dodgers Face Guilt, Shame and Reproach"

"Vova Klever, a young, successful fashion photographer from Ukraine’s capital, Kyiv, did not see himself in this war.
“Violence is not my weapon,” he said.

So shortly after Russia invaded Ukraine in late February and Ukraine prohibited men of military age from leaving the country,
Mr. Klever sneaked out to London.

His mistake, which would bring devastating consequences, was writing to a friend about it.
The friend betrayed his trust and posted their conversation on social media. It went viral, and Ukrainians all over the internet
exploded with anger and resentment."

"Thousands of Ukrainian men of military age have left the country to avoid participating in the war, according to records from
regional law enforcement officials and interviews with people inside and outside Ukraine. Smuggling rings in Moldova, and possibly
other European countries, have been doing a brisk business. Some people have paid up to $15,000 for a secret night-time ride out
of Ukraine, Moldovan officials said.

The draft dodgers are the vast exception. That makes it all the more complicated for them — morally, socially and practically.
Ukrainian society has been mobilized for war against a much bigger enemy, and countless Ukrainians without military experience
have volunteered for the fight. To maximize its forces, the Ukrainian government has taken the extreme step of prohibiting
men 18 to 60 from leaving, with few exceptions.

All this has forced many Ukrainian men who don’t want to serve into taking illegal routes into Hungary, Moldova and Poland and
other neighboring countries. Even among those convinced they fled for the right reasons, some said they felt guilty and ashamed."

"Ukrainian politicians have threatened to put draft dodgers in prison and confiscate their homes. But within Ukrainian society,
even as cities continue to be pummeled by Russian bombs, the sentiments are more divided.
A meme recently popped up with the refrain, “Do what you can, where you are.” It’s clearly meant to counter negative feelings
toward those who left and assure them they can still contribute to the war effort."

"Moldova has become the favorite trap door.
Moldova shares a nearly 800-mile border with western Ukraine. And unlike Hungary, Poland, Romania and Slovakia, Moldova
is not part of the European Union, which means it has significantly fewer resources to control its frontiers. It is one of Europe’s
poorest countries and has been a hub
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and organized crime.

Within days of the war erupting, Moldovan officials said, Moldovan gangs posted advertisements on Telegram, a popular
messaging service in Eastern Europe, offering to arrange cars, even minibuses, to spirit out draft dodgers."

"Volodymyr Danuliv is one of them. He refuses to fight in the war, though it’s not the prospect of dying that worries him,
he said. It is the killing. “I can’t shoot Russian people,” said Mr. Danuliv, 50.
He explained that his siblings had married Russians and that two of his nephews were serving in the Russian Army — in Ukraine."

"Mr. Danuliv, a businessman from western Ukraine, said he wanted no part in the war. When asked if he feared being ostracized
or shamed, he shook his head. “I didn’t kill anyone. That’s what’s important to me,” he said. “I don’t care what people say.”
Soon it may be time to write a novel (set in Ukraine 2022) that's like a revision of _Four Feathers_.
 

Coalescence

Senior Member
Registered Member
Any confirmation from Russian side?
Any videos? Or a blatant propaganda?

No confirmation from the Russian side, and no videos or images yet from the Ukrainian side either. Its pretty strange, if the Ukrainian side did destroyed a 13km long convoy, wouldn't they be excited to attach the announcement with a video like they always do? Maybe they destroyed like a few of the vehicles, and got the entire convoy completely disrupted.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top