Ukrainian War Developments

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Atomicfrog

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*DEVELOPING*

According to Slovakian media, Slovakia and Ukraine have almost finalized an agreement on the sale of 16 ZUZANA 155mm Self-Propelled Howitzers to Ukraine.

The ZUZANA has firing range of 41km.
Ukraine will never repay all of that... do Slovakia getting ''replacement'' from the US ? Do they aim to get paid with land ? I don't think they have any gun with this ammunition, so they will get some stockpile of some sort with them ?

Ukraine will be an incredible junkyard after the war, they will be able to recycle steel for years. Munitions and weapons on black market and in the hands of mobster.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
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Ukraine will never repay all of that... do Slovakia getting ''replacement'' from the US ? Do they aim to get paid with land ? I don't think they have any gun with this ammunition, so they will get some stockpile of some sort with them ?

Ukraine will be an incredible junkyard after the war, they will be able to recycle steel for years. Munitions and weapons on black market and in the hands of mobster.
The West is giving loans to Ukraine which they then use to pay for these weapons. It is a massive handout to themselves basically.
It is a good deal for the weapons manufacturers. For Ukraine they will end up as more meat for the meat grinder. I think the further they persist the more of their own will die. It is not enough to just hand out weapons. You need to train crews, and if you distribute heavy weapons, the army needs to have the organic capability to integrate those.
 

RottenPanzer

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meckhardt98

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Ukraine will never repay all of that... do Slovakia getting ''replacement'' from the US ? Do they aim to get paid with land ? I don't think they have any gun with this ammunition, so they will get some stockpile of some sort with them ?

Ukraine will be an incredible junkyard after the war, they will be able to recycle steel for years. Munitions and weapons on black market and in the hands of mobster.

The DANA; and ZUZANA which is based on the DANA were designed to accept all 152MM/155MM ammunition types from the Soviet Bloc. Ukraine should still have operational stores of 155MM left.

Slovakia operates only sixteen ZUZANA systems; which were developmental platforms and have twenty six upgraded variants on order; however they still operate over a hundred DANA 152MM systems. I doubt the United States will be compensating them for this and I highly doubt the Slovakian government feels an immediately need to replace these losses.
 
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Atomicfrog

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The DANA; and ZUZANA which is based on the DANA were designed to accept all 152MM/155MM ammunition types from the Soviet Bloc. Ukraine should still have operational stores of 155MM left.

Slovakia operates only sixteen ZUZANA systems; which were developmental platforms and have twenty six upgraded variants on order; however they still operate over a hundred DANA 152MM systems. I doubt the United States will be compensating them for this and the Slovakian government feels no need to immediately replace these losses.
Nice, so beside a new system that need accommodation and training, at least they don't have ammunitions problems.

Was thinking that The Slovak ShKH Zuzana has been modified with a NATO STD 155 mm gun
 

4Runner

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Wow! What a thread this has become! I expect in a month any hiatuses I take are going to be hilarious to return and read through the posts here. I have to say this thread has a wild tendency to degenerate into arguments over things having little to do with the Russo-Ukrainian War. I saw one warning. We should heed it. There might be one more after that, but we had a thread lock once, folks.

Some thoughts.

1. Kramatorsk's train station. I don't think the Russians did it. I don't think the Ukrainians did it. There is a 'third' party to this war, another set of combatants known to fsck up. Ones that known for shooting down 'cute birds' the last time fighting in the Donbas was really hot. Ones known to be given captured Ukrainian equipment. Ones noted for using the phrase 'for the children.' If you haven't guessed it, I'm disappointed. They are the LNR and DNR. It makes no sense for the Russians to hit the station intentionally. A false flag by the Ukrainians seems more likely to cost them support than gather it: the truth will out. The DNR+LNR use a lot of captured Ukrainian equipment and they are not as professional as the Russians and Ukrainians for their targeting. I don't think they intentionally targeted the train station. I can't imagine a handed over Tochka would be terribly accurate. However, LNR+DNR feet fit the slipper the best of the groups involved.

2. The losses described of the Russian BTGs. I've been tracking the photographic evidence and keeping a rough tally of the losses of IFVs, APCs and tanks. I have equipment losses for at least 18, almost 19 BTG for their APCs, IFVs and tanks plus another 8 tank battalions. 35% of the tanks the original 130 BTG had have been lost (neglecting the non BTG tank units). That's...bad.

The death guessimate I have now hits over 4,100 dead. This is based on the destroyed tanks, apcs, ifvs and MT-LBs. This does not count rear echelons, infantry not associated with that equipment, or other vehicles' crew and passengers. I definitely believe the infantry have suffered more than what I am guessimating - they always do - and I also believe t he rear echelons have been targeted a lot, but I don't have a good feel for deaths there.

If we go with a 3x deaths for wounded, we get 12,300 wounded. That would bring casualties to a total of 16,400 or more than 20 entire BTG.

Could 25% of the units deployed be combat ineffective? A total of 32 BTG mauled? I believe that is possibly true. It could be worse: remember the Russians have been reinforced and the total BTG deployed into Ukraine are more than the original 130 BTG.

Remember: combat ineffective does NOT mean everyone in that unit has died. It means between 20 to 40% of the personnel or equipment has been destroyed, killed, wounded, or requires significant repair.

With the admission by the Russian government the losses have been bad, even in an off the cuff remark, I definitely believe they have been chewed up. How much? We will have to wait and see. I don't think we have a good number just yet, even and especially me, despite tracking everything I can.

3. Czechia and Slovakia sending combat vehicles to Ukraine is a bluff call of Russia. If Russia doesn't do anything, we will see more nations doing the same thing, overtly or covertly. I have a feeling more equipment has been shipped covertly, but it's not based on anything other than a feeling. I am starting to think, for this war, IFVs might be the best AFVs to get: move lots of infantry fast and have them hop out with ATGMs... IFVs and artillery. Lots of artillery. And drones. Where is our resident drone salesman?

4. I want to call people's attention to the T-80s in the Kharkov Oblast that was recently posted. There's a detail I suspect most people missed: dust. Lots of dust. We could be seeing an early drying of the raputitsa. That would be bad for the Ukrainians and beneficial for the Russians. The Ukrainians need another month, IMO, of reinforcement by general mud to get into a better position by killing tanks, APCs, IFVs and trucks limited to the roads...and, therefore, easy to kill by infantry and very hard to pursue by tanks, etc. Mud will win or lose the war.

5. The Ukrainian army seems to be practicing what western armies claim they like to do, but rarely actually do: lots of initiative and independence by the local forces in contact. The West often talks this, but when faced with real combat, the commanders on high intervene a LOT. Even down to the squad from the colonel level. Here it seems, the Ukrainians are showing exactly how effective the model could be if anyone actually followed it. Huh. Hypocrisy and deviation from military doctrine when actually facing combat. Can't imagine who else has done that besides the West. Huh, Russia?

6. Finally, I don't think Russia is winning. I don't think she's losing either. Everything hinges on what happens in the next month. The keys will be the raputitsa and logistics. Whoever gets there to the fastest with the mostest will win this. If the Russians can pull together enough forces to finally produce the kessel (Baba Yaga's pot!) and the mud relents, they'll win. If the Ukrainians can reinforce their flanks enough to chew up the Russian offensive and the muck stays for a month longer, I think they have a solid chance at beating the Russians back across the ante bellum borders.
I think,

1. You were hiding in an undemocratic place. This thread has been evolving in a democratic fashion.

2. This war is becoming a forever war. That Russians said this war would end before 5/9 was a FUD to the west.

3. This war is progressing in my ballpark. So far, the loss to Russia is attrition, but loss to EU is fundamental.

4. EU continues to do some really stupid things in the next months.

5. After 20Big and mid-term, Biden and Xi will have to patch things up. Otherwise, we will be sleep-walking into a WIII.

(I am not trolling you. Imitation is a great form of flattery.)
 

anzha

Senior Member
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I think,

1. You were hiding in an undemocratic place. This thread has been evolving in a democratic fashion.

??? I don't understand.

Please, explain. I've had a rough week and worked about 70 hours in 5 days. I needed to do some stuff today, but feel exhausted. My brain is mildly tapioca. That I am coherent at all seems to be a minor miracle to me.

2. This war is becoming a forever war. That Russians said this war would end before 5/9 was a FUD to the west.

Perhaps. That's the best interpretation. It could also be goal post moving (worst interpretation).

3. This war is progressing in my ballpark. So far, the loss to Russia is attrition, but loss to EU is fundamental.

Explain, please?

To me the war is very self defeating for the Russians. There was no way Ukraine was joining NATO. It probably will not now unless Ukraine goes on to have miracles of god for its campaigns and takes all of the Donbas and Crimea. Now, however, it seems semi likely Finland will and Sweden may join NATO. The sanctions by the west are not going to go away soon, even if the war ends. China is only willing to help as far as it help china, not out of the goodness of Xi's heart.

(I am not trolling you. Imitation is a great form of flattery.)

Not taking your post as trolling at all.

I use the numbers to separate different thoughts. Otherwise, it seems to blend together, especially when I am tired.

I am flattered someone else found it useful.
 

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
Interesting theory. My only questions are...have Russia or Donbass forces actually captured any Tochka-U launchers?
Captured Tochka are probably spent Tochka launchers... if you don't have reloads, they serve nothing else than spending fuel. It's like the TOS-1A ''captured'' by the tractor team...empty of rockets and no means to reload it. It serve nothing else than losing time and spending fuel. Better to throw an hand grenade into to disable or left it there.
 
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