Ukrainian War Developments

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lcloo

Captain
Playing some devil’s advocate here…

This Bucha story doesn’t really seem logical. As we know, both sides have been pretty economical with the truth…

1. As mentioned, Internet and mobile system is still up, if such a mass murder happened, no doubt there would be some kind of posting (not necessarily video because of fear obviously).

Aside: Huawei provided most of the 4G network in Ukraine, working pretty well under fire it seems…

2. Seems really fishy that soldiers would leave tied up executed people to be found like that? If they did commit such crimes it would make more sense to try to burn the bodies.

3. If they wanted to be so cruel, why not just call in an air strike, or artillery strike from the beginning? Doesn’t really fit the pattern.

4. International media has gone through, these are not actors, but doesn’t mean they cannot “dress up” bodies. These are journalists, not forensics experts.

Only interested in the truth here, not trying to support the Russian narrative.
It was done to incite dramatic reactions from audience in the same style as Hollywood movie often do, and guess whiich president has been an actor, and familiar with movie sets. In fact I was very suspicious onn the authenticity of Mr. President Z's few past videos depicting him speaking outside building compound, because of the cinema screen-like backgrounds in his videos.

It is mind boggling why Russians would shot people and leave them the way it was shown. It is almostly like doing filming for a commercial advertisement, or a thriller of a movie.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
This whole war has been a mess due to Putin's illogical political decisions, so you aren't wrong on what you are saying

I am sorry, but that’s just typical western MSM gaslighting propaganda at work.

The primary reason Russia rushed the initial phases of the war was due to the threat of NATO intervention.

The greatest risk for Putin was that NATO would actually grow a pair and rush in rapid reaction ground troops to stare down the Russian advance and essentially dare them to start WWIII. Putin might have been prepared to roll the dice and bet that Biden will fold, but China might not have been willing to bet the proverbial farm on it. Without full, albeit behind the scenes, Chinese economic support, Russia could not without western sanctions.

Thus he could not afford to do a methodical minimal risk and loss conventional strategy to push slowly from west to east, and instead had to make the initial rushes to secure the bare minimum amount of territory that is needed to make the whole Ukraine invasion worthwhile.

The secondary objective of the direct threat to Kiev was to pin down a sizeable proportion of the Ukrainian military and more critically, redirect the a significant share of NATO supplied weapons to Kiev rather than have it all go the actual frontlines where the bulk of the fighting and dying was happening.

The poor show from the Russian military in the field could hardly be blamed on Putin.

The only strategic ‘mistake’ that might be reasonably attributed to Putin was the softy softly brotherly war approach. That might be true, but in hindsight, that aspect may well have been deliberately overblown by all sides. By the west to discredit Putin personally, and by the Russians to humanise him.

But I suspect the main reason there wasn’t a shock and awe style mass bombardment of the Ukrainians was simply because the VVS lacked the actual ability to mount such large scale and sustained air strikes.

The first day of war strikes were probably as shock and awe as the VVS could manage, and they needed to take a few days off to recover afterwards at that.

It is clear now that the bulk of the VVS geared primarily for air combat against NATO, and the Russians criminally under invested in key support assets and systems like AWACS, ISR, drones, targeting pods and above all else, air launched PGMs.

The bulk of the Russian PGM strikes are coming from naval cruise missiles, Iskander launchers and attack helicopters.

The VVS are reduced to lobbing iron bombs with Su34s, Su30s and Su35s and essentially gifting the Ukrainians kills against those premium aircraft they should have no business threatening.

Even during the early 2000s the PLAAF was better prepared for ground strike with its JH7 and Su30MKK fleets since China actually purchased the bulk of Russian made PGMs with its MKK orders.

But I digress, the point is that Putin could hardly be blamed for not launching the kind of massed air strikes the VSS is simply unable to deliver.

Now the big strategic shift is happening because NATO has shown it has no balls to get involved directly, so the Russians can now take their time. They are pulling their forces from Kiev to reinforce and consolidate their numbers in the west and to ease their well documented logistical problems (again, hardly something you can blame on Putin).

I suspect another reason for the total withdrawal of the Kiev force is that Russia is going to reverse its massed watered down BTG rollout mistake and reconstitute it’s forces into as many proper BTGs as it can cobble together, with the remaining being reconfigured back to more traditional configurations for conventional battle.

Thus we should actually see the Russians start to fight more competently and coherently, with proper BTGs doing BTG stuff of spearheading breakthrough manoeuvre attacks to cut off enemy forces to form cauldrons, while the conventional army does conventional army stuff of general advance under massed artillery fire to annihilate the Ukrainian forces thus trapped.

It will be a much slower and ‘boring’ grind in that I would expect the Reddit live updates to start drying up as they run out of stuff they want to film and upload, and/or the people doing the filming and uploading start to get systematically annihilated by the Russians. But that’s the kind of stuff the Russians excel at.
 

meckhardt98

Junior Member
Registered Member
It was done to incite dramatic reactions from audience in the same style of Hollywood movie often do, and guess whiich president has been an actor, and familiar with movie sets. In fact I was very suspicious onn the authenticity of Mr. Pesedent Z's few past videos depicting him speaking outside building compound, because of the cinema screen-like backgrounds in his videos.

I believe that the incident at Bucha is due to several interconnected; but separate; incidents that are being used as a whole to depict a massacre.

I believe Russian forces have killed several dozen civilians in Bucha; bodies were discovered in burn pits but never burnt; they did this in Chechnya to deny the enemy more fighting bodies. There are also bodies that have seemingly died from cross fire from both sides that is being blamed on the Russians, which may be technically true would not indicate any sort of genocide and would be due to incidental causes.

Then there are bodies with white arm bands which were executed by Ukrainian forces for cooperating with Russian Forces during the Bucha campaign.

In short all of these bodies; created by the Bucha campaign; are being used to frame a narrative of genocide and war crimes. Although I whole-heartedly do believe Russian Forces are responsible for executing civilians in Bucha based on evidence presented, I also believe that the Ukrainian media is over-exaggerating the situation by using other collateral losses on-top of using Ukrainian war crimes as evidence for Russian war crimes.

War is an awful things and both sides are equal to blame for civilian deaths which is a tragic thing that should be avoided.
 

FADH1791

Junior Member
Registered Member
Continued...

Below are excerpts from

The War in Chechnya: A Military Analysis
By G.D. Bakshi

Phase Three–Fighting in Built Up Area: The Reduction of Grozney (December 25, 1999 to mid February 2000). Initially it appeared that the Russian operational design was to drive in deep and encircle all the major population centers. Casualties would then be inflicted on the rebels by artillery fire assaults and heavy air strikes on the cities where they were holed up. There was a possibility that based upon the experience of the First Chechen war, the Russians would not like to get involved in fighting in built up areas, where operations can be very slow and result in enormous casualties. Acting President Valdimir Putin was however quite blunt “Our aim is not to encircle the terrorists. Our aim is to destroy them and bring them to justice”. Russian Defence Minister Igor Sergeyev said that his forces would fulfill the task of liquidating armed groups and terrorist bands in Chechnya.
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Historically the Russians have the most extensive experience of fighting in built up areas. During World War II, Leningrad and Stalingrad had become household names. The dogged and determined Russian attacks made a dent in the Grozney defences. Russian forces pushed into Grozney along five main thrust lines. In the northeast (from the Sunzha river direction) in the east along the airport and Khankhela (where major battles of the Minutka Square took place). From the south and southwest and along the northwestern road. By February 1, 2000 the back of the Chechen resistance in Grozney was broken. Lechi Dudayev (the Mayor of Grozney and a nephew of former President Dudayev) was killed. Shamil Basayev, the top Chechen warlord was badly wounded. 140 Chechen terrorists surrendered and Russian troops gained control of 40 per cent of Grozney, including the famous Minutka Square.

Anne Nivat, a correspondent of Quest France, reported that on February 1, some 2200 Chechen rebels were seen in Alkhan Khale, one of the suburbs of Grozney, trying to break out and escape towards the hills of the southeast.
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They found a gap between the Russian southern and southwestern thrust lines and tried desperately to exploit it. The Russians were trying their best to intercept and destroy this band and were planning to methodically flush out the 3500 Islamic fighters in the southeastern hills. Though a lot of hard fighting still lay ahead, the kernel in Grozney had been broken by mid February 2000 and heavy casualties inflicted on the Islamic rebels.

*** Further personal commentary:


The Russians were thoroughly hubristic if they truly believed, and it is seemed as though certain members of the highest echelons of leadership, including Putin himself, that the Ukrainians would just capitulate at the first signs of Russians at the foot of Kiev.

The rush towards Kiev seems to have been undertaken with that assumption with a large extent of confidence and the Russians did not prepare their combat units that made the advance with the necessary supplies and logistics and nor did they undertake the necessary defensive actions.

Unlike the 2nd Chechen War in which the Russians were very cautious, deliberate, and methodical in their advance and knew very well that they would meet the utmost resistance, the Russians in this Ukrainian War gambled big time on a long shot speed rush that failed spectacularly.

Had the Russians adopted the attitude of the 2nd Chechen War, taking into consideration the need for much greater caution because of the advances in military technology that exist since then that have brought much more effective ATGMS and drones which they certainly knew that Ukrainians were much in possession of, they would have been equally as cautious or even more cautious in their approach to Kiev, knowing full well their own (Russia's) limitations and vulnerabilities. And as such the Russians would have suffered much fewer casualties and would not be forced to make such a humiliating retreat from Kiev, gaslighting the entire operation as a feint. ***
Moral of the story never underestimate your enemy. Russia borders Ukraine and you would think they would have a massive spy network in Ukraine give them intelligence on Ukraine’s military. Ukraine’s military is massive. 200k active duty with 400k that has battlefield experience. Not to mention hundred of thousands more in the reserve. For this second phase in the Donbas Russia needs to take the Ukrainian military more seriously.
In 1943, Hitler appointed Guderian to reconstruct the depleted Panzerwaffe.
Guderian wanted the Wehrmacht to stay on the strategic defensive on the Ostfront in 1943, hoping to resume offensive
campaigns with a reinvigorated Panzerwaffe in 1944.

Hitler insisted that it was imperative for Germany to launch a major offensive (upon the Kursk salient) in 1943.
He made essentially an argument based upon prestige. Hitler would lose face if Germany did not attack.
Guderian retorted: "How many people in the world even know where Kursk is? It's a matter of indifference to the world
whether Kursk is held by us or the Russians." In the end, Hitler rolled the dice with Operation Citadel.

My point is that military campaigns tend to get into trouble when decisions are made based upon political prestige.
The Donbas offensive isn’t a political decision. It’s make military sense to surround and destroy Ukraine’s strongest and most experienced fighters. This will also isolate Ukrainian garrisons in the major cities in the east. Let’s be clear Russia goal is to make sure Ukraine never joins NATO and isn’t a military threat. Best way to do this is to capture the historical Novorussiya lands. Form a Novorussiya pro Moscow friendly buffer state and leave the rest of Ukraine proper as a landlocked poor state.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I believe that the incident at Bucha is due to several interconnected; but separate; incidents that are being used as a whole to depict a massacre.

I believe Russian forces have killed several dozen civilians in Bucha; bodies were discovered in burn pits but never burnt; they did this in Chechnya to deny the enemy more fighting bodies. There are also bodies that have seemingly died from cross fire from both sides that is being blamed on the Russians, which may be technically true would not indicate any sort of genocide and would be due to incidental causes.

Then there are bodies with white arm bands which were executed by Ukrainian forces for cooperating with Russian Forces during the Bucha campaign.

In short all of these bodies; created by the Bucha campaign; are being used to frame a narrative of genocide and war crimes. Although I whole-heartedly do believe Russian Forces are responsible for executing civilians in Bucha based on evidence presented, I also believe that the Ukrainian media is over-exaggerating the situation by using other collateral losses on-top of using Ukrainian war crimes as evidence for Russian war crimes.

War is an awful things and both sides are equal to blame for civilian deaths which is a tragic thing that should be avoided.
Generally fair assessment although I question the part about Russia executing civilians to ‘deny manpower’.

If that was the case, there wouldn’t be any white armband fighting age civilian males since they would have all been shot by the Russians.

Seems more likely that the mass graves were just of civilians killed during fighting (cross fire, shelling, Elensky encouraged Molotov lemin rush waste of lives etc).

I have not seen any conclusive instances of Russians executing prisoners or mistreating civilians. The Ukrainians have uploaded plenty of evidence of themselves doing just that.

While I cannot and will not rule out the possibility of such war crimes by Russian forces, but based on the actual evidence available so far, the if civilians were executed, it’s far more probable that the Ukrainians were the ones who did it.
 

Coalescence

Senior Member
Registered Member
Form a Novorussiya pro Moscow friendly buffer state and leave the rest of Ukraine proper as a landlocked poor state.
However even after achieving this, it won't stop what's left of Ukraine to become incredibly hostile and resentful towards Russia. Backed with weapons from NATO and US, terrorist attacks, bombing and border incursion will become a regular occurrence.

Russia will have to spend more of their military resources just to defend those states, with no way to settle for a long-lasting peace agreement between Ukraine. Eventually another war will just return later down the line, with possibly more involvement and escalation from both NATO and Russia.

Sadly, the only option I can think of for Russia to avoid this scenario is to do worse than what they have called out Ukraine for doing against Donbass, which is constantly shelling Ukraine's infrastructure and industries, until its no more.

Just thinking about this makes me depressed about the state of the world. Why does it have to be this way.
 

Weaasel

Senior Member
Registered Member
Moral of the story never underestimate your enemy. Russia borders Ukraine and you would think they would have a massive spy network in Ukraine give them intelligence on Ukraine’s military. Ukraine’s military is massive. 200k active duty with 400k that has battlefield experience. Not to mention hundred of thousands more in the reserve. For this second phase in the Donbas Russia needs to take the Ukrainian military more seriously.

The Donbas offensive isn’t a political decision. It’s make military sense to surround and destroy Ukraine’s strongest and most experienced fighters. This will also isolate Ukrainian garrisons in the major cities in the east. Let’s be clear Russia goal is to make sure Ukraine never joins NATO and isn’t a military threat. Best way to do this is to capture the historical Novorussiya lands. Form a Novorussiya pro Moscow friendly buffer state and leave the rest of Ukraine proper as a landlocked poor state.
They had/have a massive spy network. They were aware of Ukrainian potential capabilities on paper. They disregarded that, and just gambled on the thunder rush decapitation strike and got licked. They also disregarded their own vulnerabilities and limitations.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Putting aside all the Russian military criticism, can we just appreciate for a moment the Ka-52 for how good it has been so far. One of the brightest spots so far from the Russian defence industry

PLA should maybe look into buying some of these units for testing and to get an insight into them. Remarkable helicopters
Ka-52 is king. PLAN already ordered 36 of them. I think PLA should negotiate a tech transfer for them as they'll be able to outfit PLAN marines and PLA ground forces.
 

Weaasel

Senior Member
Registered Member
However even after achieving this, it won't stop what's left of Ukraine to become incredibly hostile and resentful towards Russia. Backed with weapons from NATO and US, terrorist attacks, bombing and border incursion will become a regular occurrence.

Russia will have to spend more of their military resources just to defend those states, with no way to settle for a long-lasting peace agreement between Ukraine. Eventually another war will just return later down the line, with possibly more involvement and escalation from both NATO and Russia.

Sadly, the only option I can think of for Russia to avoid this scenario is to do worse than what they have called out Ukraine for doing against Donbass, which is constantly shelling Ukraine's infrastructure and industries, until its no more.

Just thinking about this makes me depressed about the state of the world. Why does it have to be this way.
My prediction is that the Ukrainians will be ousted from Donbass and the Russians will retain their landbridge. I am not sure whether there will be a negotiated settlement thereafter. There could be a length or indefinite stalemate. If Ukraine continues hostilities to try to recapture Russian occupied territory, Russia will undertake escalatory bombardments. Whatever the case, even if there is a negotiated settlement, there will long be resentment between Russia and Ukraine, and Russia and the West for decades to come.
 
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