Ukrainian War Developments

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Bill Blazo

Junior Member
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From my perspective, your first example was the only valid criterion, i. e., “did you achieve the central objectives that you set out before the war started”. Anything else is simply failure, if not outright defeat. The salient question, for Russia, I believe, is precisely who they were defeated by, Ukraine, or the ineptitude born of hubris!

I’m thinking of starting a new thread for Arm Chair strategists called “What Would Have Been Your Strategy For Russia In Ukraine”, now that we have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.
And I totally get where you're coming from. But even if we agree with that standard, some people may argue that it's still not clear who won. After all, Russia is not the only country that had objectives before this thing started; so did Ukraine. One of Ukraine’s central objectives, if you believe Zelensky and his officials, was to preserve the country’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. They're clearly going to fail at that. So now we're left to rank which central objectives are more important, since one could argue both sides failed to meet some of them. I think on the whole that Russia's failure to bring Ukraine back into its strategic dominion is more relevant, and so on this criterion I would say that Russia lost.

But more broadly, and to get philosophical for a second, I don't think there's a fixed or Platonic definition for victory in warfare, or for any other concept for that matter (since I reject Platonism categorically). I think the meaning of victory is tentative and provisional. It's subject to social, political, and historical conditions. A victory in one time and place might be considered a defeat in another. So I myself reserve judgment on who "won" the war, because I don't think it's a meaningful discussion to begin with. I'm more interested in how this war will shape the future of the world, economically, politically, strategically.

Given the benefit of hindsight, I would have chosen exactly the strategy the Russians have picked now: get the Donbas, land bridge to Crimea, destroy Ukraine's military by the summer.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
It's scary how you can find a corresponding anecdote from the Spring/Autumn and Warring States period for anything happening today. Scarier still is that even average Chinese know these anecdotes, having learned about them either in school or at home. Maybe Western politicians should start studying the Warring States period.
To put it bluntly, Chinese as a culture and people became an adult more than 2000 years ago marked by the establishment of Qin empire. The west is still a teenager experimenting every trick that they can come up with.
 

Richard Santos

Captain
Registered Member
And I totally get where you're coming from. But even if we agree with that standard, some people may argue that it's still not clear who won. After all, Russia is not the only country that had objectives before this thing started; so did Ukraine. One of Ukraine’s central objectives, if you believe Zelensky and his officials, was to preserve the country’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. They're clearly going to fail at that. So now we're left to rank which central objectives are more important, since one could argue both sides failed to meet some of them. I think on the whole that Russia's failure to bring Ukraine back into its strategic dominion is more relevant, and so on this criterion I would say that Russia lost.

But more broadly, and to get philosophical for a second, I don't think there's a fixed or Platonic definition for victory in warfare, or for any other concept for that matter (since I reject Platonism categorically). I think the meaning of victory is tentative and provisional. It's subject to social, political, and historical conditions. A victory in one time and place might be considered a defeat in another. So I myself reserve judgment on who "won" the war, because I don't think it's a meaningful discussion to begin with. I'm more interested in how this war will shape the future of the world, economically, politically, strategically.

Given the benefit of hindsight, I would have chosen exactly the strategy the Russians have picked now: get the Donbas, land bridge to Crimea, destroy Ukraine's military by the summer.

Is platonic victory when you claim victory without screwing the enemy?
 

lcloo

Captain
Attempted sieze of Kiev could be a fake maneuver to tie down Ukrainian from sending reinforcement to Eastern Ukraine. I believe Russians are well aware that to take Kiev, they would need more than twice the size of they current invading force. During WW2, Nazi German deployed more than half a million men to take Kiev.

Once the Russian's objective in Eastern Ukraine is achieved, the war would be coming to an end with probably a uniletral ceased fire from Russia, unless the Ukrainians are stupid enough to continue attacking Russians which will then prolong the war. Whatever happen after that will depend on the negotiations between Russia and Ukraine.
 

james smith esq

Senior Member
Registered Member
How much do you want to bring up the United States? You seem to think that I'm pro-US because I dared to criticize Putin.
Yes, the dichotomous thinking in this thread gives me the impression that it’s actually filled with “‘Muhruhcuhn” Libuhruhls and Cuhnsurvuhtives!
 
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sferrin

Junior Member
Registered Member
Sure. And then Putin can glass Miami or some place like that. Perhaps he can do a real live demonstration of Poseidon on the Florida coast so we can see its effects live instead of on a crappy computer rendered animation. Do you even know Russian official nuclear doctrine? It is published. Attacking Russian territory, and the Russians consider Crimea to be their territory, with nukes is cause for them using nukes too.
If Putin thinks he can use nukes without catching some in the face in return he's even dumber than this war is making him look.
 
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