Ukrainian War Developments

Bill Blazo said:

And I totally get where you're coming from. But even if we agree with that standard, some people may argue that it's still not clear who won. After all, Russia is not the only country that had objectives before this thing started; so did Ukraine. One of Ukraine’s central objectives, if you believe Zelensky and his officials, was to preserve the country’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. They're clearly going to fail at that. So now we're left to rank which central objectives are more important, since one could argue both sides failed to meet some of them. I think on the whole that Russia's failure to bring Ukraine back into its strategic dominion is more relevant, and so on this criterion I would say that Russia lost.

But more broadly, and to get philosophical for a second, I don't think there's a fixed or Platonic definition for victory in warfare, or for any other concept for that matter (since I reject Platonism categorically). I think the meaning of victory is tentative and provisional. It's subject to social, political, and historical conditions. A victory in one time and place might be considered a defeat in another. So I myself reserve judgment on who "won" the war, because I don't think it's a meaningful discussion to begin with. I'm more interested in how this war will shape the future of the world, economically, politically, strategically.

Given the benefit of hindsight, I would have chosen exactly the strategy the Russians have picked now: get the Donbas, land bridge to Crimea, destroy Ukraine's military by the summer.

Click to expand...

Somebody took some non-STEM courses, l see!

Understanding the “constructedness” of interpretation, I still adhere to objective measures. As we used to say in my boxing circles, no matter what the judges scores were, a Nuygher knows when he got his ass whipped! But then again, when trying to get pregnant, even if impreganation isn’t achieved, many would consider the effort a “win”! LOL As, long as it wasn’t an artificial insemination, that is!

Yes, I would have done Donbas, first, then pursued additional objectives. Feel free to contribute to the new thread:

Phead128 said:

That's because the air and missile campaign was against military command and control centers, suppression of air defense systems, and radars, not MBTs targets.

Click to expand...

Incorrect. Google, "tank plinking". Dug in armored forces and artillery were very high on Schwarzkopf's list.

4Runner said:

IIRC, G20 was a direct result of China rejecting G2 right after the great financial crisis occurred. US can propose to have G20 killed altogether. On that I think China can reasonably agree because G20 is nothing but a photo op. US can have G7. China has RCEP. Russia poisoned SCO when it insisted on bringing in India as a counter-measure to China bringing Pakistan. Russia also muddled BRICS in the past. So maybe canceling G20 altogether is not a bad idea. Russia needs a lesson in half-assed relationship with China. India needs a lesson in straddling Russia and US. China needs a lesson that you cannot keep everybody happy. US needs a lesson that you cannot have the cake and eat it too, at least no longer the case vis-a-vis China. That would be a happy ending in my liking.

Click to expand...

See what I am saying??? WSJ agrees with me, OMG!!!

sferrin said:

Appeasement is never the smart way to treat a bully.

Click to expand...

Correct in concept, not in application. That is why Russia fights instead of allowing Ukraine to be poisoned.

sferrin said:

If Putin wants to open Pandora's Box maybe Sevastopol gets glassed for his trouble.

Click to expand...

Real tough talk for a country that became too scared to even transfer free jets to Ukraine the second Putin's nuclear forces stepped outside for some sun.

sferrin said:

Hell, by what we're seeing in Ukraine the West wouldn't even need nukes.

Click to expand...

But Russia has them, so moot point, isn't it? Russia doesn't fight its enemies like it does its brothers in Ukraine. Tu-160, FOAB, PAK-FA, T-14, none of them have come out to play this gentle game. They are waiting for NATO missteps; if you dare, you will see a different fighter in Russia. Problem is you don't dare.

sferrin said:

The West, and US in particular, has one weakness and it's the fact that the Democrats are in power for now.

Click to expand...

If Trump was in power, he'd be congratulating Putin and asking for advice on picking a Slavic name for his next grandchild. But hey, I don't blame you for ragging on your failed democratic system. Just don't try to sell that garbage to China.

sferrin said:

If Putin thinks he can use nukes without catching some in the face in return he's even dumber than this war is making him look.

Click to expand...

The dumb person is the one who's trying to look tough while failing, perhaps deliberately, to understand the sequence of threats. Putin invades Ukraine, NATO looks like it's gonna get up and do something, Putin flashes his nukes, and NATO sits back down like, "Sorry, was just scratching my ass, nothing else; please put those away." Putin wins.

Only a desperate fool would then try to talk like Putin wanted to nuke the US but then backed down due to American nukes.

Helius said:

Topics discussed:

- Exclusion of Russia from Interpol (which Kenya apparently supports);

- 5 Eyes to employ "tough measures" on Russia;

- Creation of system of "independent sovereign free nations" to counter "friends of Putin and his barbarism";

- UK has no cap on visas for Ukrainian refugees; over 4,000 visas already issued;

- According to Patel, 'British feminists' are not afraid of 'Ukrainian nationalists and neo-Nazis' and "the support is very significant" in the UK;

- Seizing of oligarch wealth, properties and mansions in the UK, and converting them to residences for Zelenskyy;

- Bellingcat "speaks truth to power" and "stands up for real facts", rather than "peddling falsehoods" like Assange;

- Legislations to target Russians in UK as foreign agents; "permissive activity" across UK institutions, cultural and educational establishments;

- UK has "very specialist work" taking place on screening Russians and students entering the UK whether they are FSB agents and where their loyalty lies on Crimea and Putin;

- And finally, Patel was duped into saying "The Brits always play it dirty".

Click to expand...

In other worlds, the uk is now becoming the German Nazis and that on the day that the UK finally engagEs in a real fight, we must bomb these people into pieces for the sake of world peace. Because all I see if the UK becoming the threat to world peace that the world will eventually and collectively have enough of since they apparently think that harming the Russia people is magically going to make them submit. I wonder if the Brit’s will finally admit that without the Queen (and even so in some cases), the nation like the US has no value to the world and is better off gone.

Richard Santos said:

Is platonic victory when you claim victory without screwing the enemy?

Click to expand...

Haha

There's a famous puzzle in philosophy called the problem of the criterion, from the ancient Greek skeptic Sextus Empiricus. It goes like this: whenever there's a dispute about a claim to knowledge (like who won this war), we have to come up with a criterion or a standard for resolving the dispute. But having a standard for knowledge implies that we already know what knowledge is, otherwise how could we have the standard? On the other hand, how can we possibly know which claims constitute knowledge if we don't first have a standard to evaluate them? The problem of the criterion is still unresolved despite many good cracks at it from a lot of smart people. I think what it's really getting at is this: we make certain claims all the time about a lot of stuff, but all we're really doing is elevating our feelings and intuitions to the pedestal of knowledge, to make our preconceptions seem objective and unquestionable. Some intuitions are so adaptive and successful in different conditions that we call them knowledge.

In the context of this debate, there are people on this forum who are anti-Western and pro-Russian and people who are pro-Western and anti-Russian. Those are the preconceptions, the theoretical baggage that gets brought into the debate. So if you really hate Russia and Putin, you're going to latch onto whatever criterion will help you claim that Ukraine is winning (Russia failed at its central objective, the Russians have lost more tanks, the Russians have more popped tires, Ukrainian women are prettier, whatever). If you're pro-Russian, you will put a lot of emphasis on all the territory Russia has conquered because that confirms your preconceptions (that Mother Russia is awesome and invincible). Which criterion is right? It's impossible to say. The only thing that's practical is to come up with social agreements and conventions about which criteria we're going to use, even if we can't justify them philosophically, and then evaluate the course of the war based on that agreement. But as I explained to James, even that won't always yield a clear-cut answer (ie. is preserving territory a central Ukrainian objective? If yes, then they're losing, by the same criterion that I just used to decide that Russia was losing).

"BREAKING: Russian cruise missiles hit Ukrainian Air Force's command center near Vinnitsa"

Bill Blazo said:

But as I explained to James, even that won't always yield a clear-cut answer (ie. is preserving territory a central Ukrainian objective? If yes, then they're losing, by the same criterion that I just used to decide that Russia was losing).

Click to expand...

I didn’t realize that I’d gotten an explaining to! LOL

Overbom said:

"BREAKING: Russian cruise missiles hit Ukrainian Air Force's command center near Vinnitsa"

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1507414112321605632

Click to expand...

Shouldn’t this have happened a month ago?

manqiangrexue said:

If Trump was in power, he'd be congratulating Putin and asking for advice on picking a Slavic name for his next grandchild. But hey, I don't blame you for ragging on your failed democratic system. Just don't try to sell that garbage to China.

Click to expand...

And he’d be envious that Kim Jong-Un gets to fire off BIG ICBMs.
Y’all have too much patience with these Drumpf worshippers.