Ukrainian War Developments

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Zichan

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Exactly!

In fact, both Macron and the new German leadership had been trying to say that Russia did not intend to invade Ukraine, right before Russian military moved in. In fact, the US were the earliest country to pull out their expats and diplomats from Ukraine. EU did NOT want a war in Ukraine. And as we are seeing right now, EU is hurt the MOST economically now.

I also don't want to join that "conspiracy bandwagon", but even if people here are blaming NATO expansion (which I actually agree to be one of the main reasons that tipped Russia off), I don't think continental Europe wants to destroy their relations with Russia. France and Germany would have been braindead if they actually want to push for hard economic decoupling with Russia.
There are many alternative theories. I can mention two that I believe have some credence:

1. Liberal hegemony as described by Mearsheimer. Since the end of the Cold War, the US has been pursuing an unmitigated policy of targeted spreading of liberalism and democracy. That policy was mostly successful in Europe and select East Asian countries, but has been a disaster in the Middle East. Ukraine has been long ago targeted for regime change and liberalization, the culmination of which passed in 2014. According to this theory, EU countries most of whom are also strong believers in liberal democracy, essentially sleepwalked into disaster by ignoring the Realpolitk aspects of their foreign policy.

2. Conspiracy theory: the US is using the war in Ukraine and the Ukranian people to bleed away Russia's power with the ultimate goal of destroying the Russian state and Vladimir Putin. A vocal advocate of this theory is the far right retired colonel Douglas Macgregor, a former senior advisor to the Secretary of Defense in the last months of the Trump administration.
 

Jingle Bells

Junior Member
Registered Member
The Ukrainian Army is bringing everything which makes bang , back in service. I am not saying that because is old that automatically is not good if gets the job done example bellow
I wish the war is over soon, and they can get their peaceful life back. At this rate, they're gonna have a pile of rubble handed to them, when the fighting stops.
 

Black Shark

Junior Member
There are many alternative theories. I can mention two that I believe have some credence:

1. Liberal hegemony as described by Mearsheimer. Since the end of the Cold War, the US has been pursuing an unmitigated policy of targeted spreading of liberalism and democracy. That policy was mostly successful in Europe and select East Asian countries, but has been a disaster in the Middle East. Ukraine has been long ago targeted for regime change and liberalization, the culmination of which passed in 2014. According to this theory, EU countries most of whom are also strong believers in liberal democracy, essentially sleepwalked into disaster by ignoring the Realpolitk aspects of their foreign policy.

2. Conspiracy theory: the US is using the war in Ukraine and the Ukranian people to bleed away Russia's power with the ultimate goal of destroying the Russian state and Vladimir Putin. A vocal advocate of this theory is the far right retired colonel Douglas Macgregor, a former senior advisor to the Secretary of Defense in the last months of the Trump administration.
How is that a conspiracy theory? The open NATO doctrine says Russia is an enemy and every false flag they have been creating showed that it tries to weaken Russia or peripheric points of interest like Syria, Goergia, Afghanistan and more to come. It is quite open at this point.
 

Michaelsinodef

Senior Member
Registered Member
The problem with such rhetoric is that conspiracy theories are already a deeply rooted and rampant culture of the USA. Because they have "free speech", US people use their imagination at the spare time to come up with these complicacies that are much much much more imaginative and convoluted than anything the western MSM can every come up with.

The result of that is that any US/Western people who will believe in conspiracy are already so desensitized by their "long tradition" of conspiracy culture, that they are basically totally unimpressed by any of the MSM, and they ended up making their own versions.

And because the mechanism behind conspiracy making is basically a manifestation of people's worst fear, these Americans ALWAYS eventually lead their conspiracy theory's storyline back to the USA (what they called "Deep State"/"Establishment").
I look at it in another way.

Why is conspiracy theories so rampant in the US? Well a big factor is because the american people are being lied to, moreover they are constantly being lied to.
By whom? Well their 'free media' (all corporate controlled, and the CIA and the likes is fully able to push false narratives etc.) as well as their politicians (do I really need to give you examples of this lol).

So people will start doubting their media and government, and hello conspiracy theories (not to mention CIA likely has a hand in branding stuff that goes against their narrative as just being a 'conspiracy theory')

Not to mention with the worsening condition in the US (look at life expectancy, wealth inequality etc.) that has been happening over the years (started around the 80s with Reagan and accelerated a lot with neo-liberalism after the fall of the USSR) the common people can instictively feel that something is wrong with their society which leads to conspiracy theories, 'the deep state', lizardmen etc.


And as it stands, they are right, its capitalism that is worsening life for americans and it's the corporates and capitalists that are in power sucking more money (causing reduction in middle class and more wealth inequality) and they are basically the 'deep state' (since while the american people can vote, at the end the politicians are basically never implementing laws or policies that hurt the big businesses and capitalist).
America is now VERY deeply corrupt and the american empire is falling (downward trajectory), quite humorously chinese netizens are beginning to say stuff like 'is that you great Qing' or like 'oh, it turns out the Qing dynasty was ahead of its time' (comment on video of america legalizing drugs, and pointing to how it was 'legal' back during the Qing dynasty).
 

Mirabo

Junior Member
Registered Member
There are many alternative theories. I can mention two that I believe have some credence:

1. Liberal hegemony as described by Mearsheimer. Since the end of the Cold War, the US has been pursuing an unmitigated policy of targeted spreading of liberalism and democracy. That policy was mostly successful in Europe and select East Asian countries, but has been a disaster in the Middle East. Ukraine has been long ago targeted for regime change and liberalization, the culmination of which passed in 2014. According to this theory, EU countries most of whom are also strong believers in liberal democracy, essentially sleepwalked into disaster by ignoring the Realpolitk aspects of their foreign policy.

The irony of the tragic proliferation of liberal internationalism and democratic peace theory is that the key scholars behind neoliberalism were under no pretense regarding the structure of the international system. Core thinkers of the neoliberal school like Robert Keohane and Joseph Nye extensively borrowed the fundamentals of realist theory. In fact, the rise of neoliberalist thought in the 70s was very much a response to the emergence of neorealism and shared many realpolitik assumptions.

What we see today isn't a failure of neoliberalism, liberal instututionalism, or liberal democracy. Rather, since the end of the Cold War, what appeared to be the success of democratic thought became the dominant force for policymakers in the West. The resounding victory of the First World over the Second was attributed to political ideology, rather than political reality. And since the end of the Cold War, foreign policymakers (better known as the Blob) in the West have let that poisonous illusion cloud their judgement.

Make no mistake, it is highly possible the war in Ukraine today is the outcome that American policymakers wanted. Mearsheimer suggested that, if NATO continued to lead Ukraine down the primrose path, Ukraine would be ruined. But why should the Americans care? It's a good thing. They will fight Russia to the last Ukrainian. Mearsheimer's style of offensive realism won the Cold War for the Americans and they will continue ripping pages out of the playbook. War, not peace, is in America's interests.

Unfortunately for the Europeans, they are not nearly as cunning or deceptive as the Americans. If European leaders really did care about European interests, they would have done their best to avoid the war, knowing that Europe and Russia has long enjoyed a mutually-beneficial economic relationship. So you hit the nail on the head: The EU, being strong and blind believers in liberal democracy (the political ideology) sleepwalked into disaster by completely forgetting the fundamentals of international relations.

The only way for Europe to have an economic future is to first expel the toxic, ideology-driven policy inspired by American neoconservatives, and reverting back to the optimistic, rational, and mutually beneficial neoliberal ideas proposed in the 80s. And with that, Europe will hopefully remember the value of complex interdependence, the strength of pragmatic unity. And hopefully they might soon realise the stupidity and self-destructiveness of allowing Atlaticist ideology to infect their own decision-making.

Neorealism won the Cold War for the Americans, but liberal institutionalism won it for the Europeans. And if they want to survive into the 21st century, Europeans must never forget what it was that made them independent and successful, both politically and economically.
 
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