Ukrainian War Developments

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Atomicfrog

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There is an impressive video of 2 ukranian Su25 shot down on ASB military at telegram.

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View attachment 85395

Its hard to tell, but if you manage to pause the video on the first Su-25, you can see the UAF pixelated grey camo

View attachment 85397
Only one seen crashing, they look like grey like Ukrainian ones. Oldvid ? I don't see how they have still airoplanes in the air if the Russian are doing their job.
 

Suetham

Senior Member
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On the first point, I don't know how he measured a 3:1 numerical advantage for the Ukranians. Maybe the Ukranians have that many troops on paper if you include reservists. Most indications suggest around 1:1 in reality.
Ukraine's reservists are far from a useless quantitative statistic. Around 900,000 men and women reservists, a good part of the troop has adequate training to face the conditions of a high intensity battle, you just have to do a survey that will attest that even Ukraine's reservists are trained in the complex use of equipment like drones and other weapons systems. Zelensky from the first days of the war summoned all the reservists, fully mobilizing the reserve is a difficult and time-consuming task, as is organizing and employing them on the battlefront, but after 20 days of war, it becomes a matter of perspective that the Ukraine has at least employed 1/3 or 1/2 of all reservists so far, not including the National Army itself which is made up of over 200,000 men and women.

Obviously not all men and women will be employed on the front lines of battle, it needs men manning strategic points across the country, it needs to maintain adequate numbers in the strategic reserve in full readiness, as well as employing a part of the front line of the battle. battle on all 6 points contested in Ukraine by Russia. I see no reason to disbelieve that the Russians are in a war with a 3:1 inferiority, because the Russians have the same demands as the Ukrainians, they need reserve, they need to have troops protecting access routes and conquered strategic points. Some sources indicate that 70-90% of the Russian force accumulated on the Ukrainian border has been employed, this is still not a proven confirmation, considering that the Russians had a numerical increase with the troops of Chechnya, I highly doubt this percentage employed, keeping 10-30% of troops in reserve. From an overview of the war, I see no reason to disbelieve the 3:1 inferiority of the Russians to the Ukrainians.
The problem is that BTGs are so fast and independent that logistics get left behind, and when the fuel trucks try to catch up, they get ambushed by Ukranian units that have not been properly screened. This would not be a problem if Russia had organized a main echelon of units to advance behind a smaller and more focused BTG push.
This is not true. Get the updated Ukraine map. Now research the distance traveled on all invasion routes, you will see that most except the north, all other invasion routes, the Russians did not even advance 150 km, which is the describable distance of the limitation that the Russians has to move forward, considering its logistical inferiority. On the other invasion routes, there was not even an advance greater than 80 km, which completely defeats the thesis of the lack of advance by the Russian Army due to logistical failure.
 

Abominable

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They can bring the Amiriyah shelter bombing too. US bombed a civilian shelter in Bagdad in february 1991 with two GBU-27 Paveway III laser-guided "smart bombs" killing over 400 civilians . It was a registered and known civilian bunker...
Big difference. Civilians can be hit unintentionally or intentionally through poor intelligence.

The attack on the Chinese embassy was deliberate. It was also effectively an attack on Chinese territory, as opposed to one on a third party.
 

LawLeadsToPeace

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I’m starting to wonder if Putin‘s being told the truth about the progress of the invasion. I keep remembering a scene in a movie about the ‘67 Arab/Israeli War (I think) in which the Nasser’s high-ranking advisors were reporting glowing successes on the ground and advancing model tanks on a map while, in fact, they were getting their asses kicked. Not to say that the Russians are getting their asses kicked, but that Putin strikes me as the type to surround himself with those that tell him “good news”!
Just a correction, those generals were lied to by their subordinates. For example, in 1967, when the Egyptian Air Force got smashed by the Israelis, the air base commander claimed that they defeated the Israeli raid. So the generals thought everything went well. The Arab militaries have a major lying problem within their ranks. That’s why they can’t encircle, envelop, or do anything that resembles maneuver warfare. That was why they swapped to “set piece warfare” during their preparation for the Yom Kippur War.

Given the Russians’ current progress, I don’t think they have that problem.
 

FADH1791

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Couldn't agree more.

Having a Canadian 'sniper ace' smoked in the first 20 minutes of action is humiliating. There has been no official refuting of this by the man himself and by the Western MSM; which would have been instant if his death was truly false. So for me, he is pretty much dead.

That Canadian 'sniper ace' truly underestimated his foe. He was killing Taliban and ISIL fighters for years, and he thought that killing Russians would be the same. The deadly reality for him is that Russia is not Afghanistan or ISIL. In the Middle East, he had friendly ISR and air superiority to cover his back and give him his situational awareness. That enabled him to move around and do his work with relative impunity. This is not the same with Russia. Russia is far more technologically sophisticated, and they had already control the skies over Ukraine. The Taliban and ISIL could not dictate the battle with him, but Russia could.

Not only that, we are reading tweets and horror stories of other foreign mercenaries lamenting about the absolute disaster they are experiencing in Ukraine. What happened to all those bravado talks, and talks about giving their lives to defend 'freedom and democracy'? Some of these foreign mercenaries were war veterans. Some of them were even ex-special forces.

I too have always had the niggling thought that soldiers from the collective West were suspect. Since WW2, Western soldiers have only faced enemies with meagre air and naval power. These soldiers have never faced a situation where the enemy has potent air and ISR capability. They have not faced an enemy who has the technology, and intelligence to rival the West.

This is the case for those 'brave' Western mercenaries. They have only experienced COIN, low-intensity conflicts, where they had air and ISR superiority. There was even the laughable hubris of other 'elite' foreign mercenaries with no war experience like that South Korean ex-Navy Seals volunteer. He had trained with the US numerous times. But once he had his first taste of combat in Ukraine, he wanted to return home so badly. Maybe he thought fighting the Russians was as easy as in Call Of Duty. As the former pentagon advisor, Col. Doug Macgregor said, the West is not ready for a real fight with Russia. All those years of experience in low-intensity conflicts in the Middle East is irrelevant. What's happening in Ukraine is classic high-intensity conflict with a near-peer adversary.

I was fairly surprised to see how quickly these 'battle-hardened' foreign volunteers melted away when things went south. I have yet to see any Western soldier 'soldiering on' when their situation is screwed up. Like when so many of their buddies were ruthlessly killed by the enemy. Or when the Ukrainian generals asked them to become cannon fodder on the frontlines, giving them little protective equipment and ammunition to work with. They instantly panicked and fled. If you are a Western top brass observing this, this is a very serious issue. Many of the adversaries facing the West, can fight with so much less, and can soldier on despite horrendous circumstances. This is what they will be facing if they were to ever face against Russian or Chinese troops in their own respective neighbourhoods. They will face battles far more intense than even Ukraine itself, against far more determined soldiers.

Hollywood and video games have for a long time, sugar-coated war for Western audiences. They gave the impression that any 21st century war is a guaranteed to win for the West. I have witnessed so much copium, including here in this thread about guaranteed Western military supremacy. Their adversaries, were always depicted as reckless, weak-minded, technologically backward, and most unforgivable of all, stupid. When this Russo-Ukraine war is finished, there will be much post-mortem for the West to do. All those fanboys of Western supremacy will have to face reality at some point.
As an American we haven’t fought a peer competitor since the Korean War. During Vietnam it was a counter insurgency where they could get air support in major battles. Those of the Vietnam generation(boomers) are now the top brass. Generation X first taste of war was the Gulf war. They then fought in Afghanistan and Iraq again. Millennials first taste of war was Iraq and Afghanistan. Gen Z was in Afghanistan the later years. So you have FOUR generations of combat vets who only knew fighting insurgents with air support when things get tough.

This explains why the smart thinkers in the Pentagon didn’t want a fight with Iran since the Bush years. There is some radicals that want war with Iran but the majority don’t want it. War with Iran would expose the US military something serious. Iran may not have the same conventional strength but their asymmetrical war strategy would lead to a fiasco probably worse than what Russia is facing in Ukraine.
 

Temstar

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I don't know if anyone has posted this yet, I only have time to skim through this thread and I haven't seen anyone post this.

This is, allegedly, a former PLA commander's assessment of Russian military's performance in Ukraine. The summary of military aspects is as follows:

(1) Ukrainian military with similiar equipment level and three times the manpower advantage hasn't even tried encirclement once. This shows its true combat will and ability (lack of).

(2) Russian military is really bold/brave/audacious, especially the taking of Kiev airport and northern armor units' breakthrough in Chernobol. Russian military's use of deep battle strategy was of no other alternatives, especially when they cannot undiscriminately bomb, cue Murica here.

(3) This war kind-of serves as a practice rounds for further improvement of BTG. Real Russian BTGs are strong and have great firepower, but (previous) wargames never had such deep of a penetration. Another problem is there are a lot of fake BTGs. Real BTGs were first assembled and thrown into Syrian battleground. All rest of the BTGs are emulators. Have to recognize that for such a deep penetration, the penetration has been on point, which then exposes that BTGs run too far and logistics cannot keep up.

(4) The problem with Russia is its lack of money. The problem with Ukraine is the military is trash (kind of).

There are way more in the original post than what I translate here. The whole article is here and there so it's hard to get the gist of it. Please google translate if you find it interesting.
One of the important point this ex-PLA commander is trying to make is that BTG arises out of taking a given brigade and then take all the "spear points" of the brigade (comprising about half of the strength of the brigade) and focusing them into a fist. Being made up of all the hard hitting stuff of a brigade this fist is really powerful, but it's all spear point and no spear shaft. Compared to a PLAFG combined arms brigade the BTG has a lot fewer people and very high ratio of equipment to bodies. This means the BTG is entirely logistically depending on the remaining "soft" half of the brigade that follows them. He said if he was in command of the Ukrainian he would entirely let the BTG charge past and let them wonder around in Ukraine's strategic depth while he focuses on attacking the remaining soft half of the brigade. Ukraine is kind of doing this with all their ambushes, but these are all small in scale and can't bring any decisive results. By he's estimate Ukraine should have by this stage eliminated 2-3 BTGs and so far they got a big fat zero.

A PLAFG combined arms brigade has a lot more warm bodies and is self-contained logistic wise. In a head to head a BTG would not be able to fight off a heavy combined arms brigade due to the sheer numerical superiority and weight of all that armour and firepower. Conversely a BTG would not be fast enough to catch the very fast medium and light combined arms brigades and those would be perfect for dodging around the fist that is BTG and loop around and hit the rear half of the brigade.

He says when he's troops and Russian armed forces train together at Zhurihe every hour they have to stop and wait for Russians to catch up to them. And when they do all he see is equipment leaking water, leaking oil and overheating.
 

gadgetcool5

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Registered Member
I’m starting to wonder if Putin‘s being told the truth about the progress of the invasion. I keep remembering a scene in a movie about the ‘67 Arab/Israeli War (I think) in which the Nasser’s high-ranking advisors were reporting glowing successes on the ground and advancing model tanks on a map while, in fact, they were getting their asses kicked. Not to say that the Russians are getting their asses kicked, but that Putin strikes me as the type to surround himself with those that tell him “good news”!
Sure but that was only six days. This has been going on for three weeks and will go on longer than that, so it becomes harder and harder to maintain a deception. Plus there's a lot more information readily available now than then.

The main reason for the Russian underperformance, IMO, other than Western assistance which makes this more a NATO-Russia war than Russia-Ukraine, is that Ukrainian society has completely mobilized from Day 1 whereas Russia has not even partially mobilized.

The advantage of a big country only comes into play if you use the full heft and weight of the big country. The Russians are still treating this as a "special military operation" carried out by relatively few professional troops fulfilling fixed objectives whereas the other side is treating it like total war. If anything there are more similarities to the U.S. invasion of Iraq, which while more tactically successful, eventually ran into big problems due to the fact that they didn't commit enough troops from their volunteer army. In reality, the Russians could crush Ukraine if they went all out but they aren't.

That being said, it really remains to be seen how it all plays out. If the Russians keep at it and become more determined over time, then they can still get an advantage. They have already paid the biggest costs so there is little incentive for them to withdraw now, but we'll see.
 

FriedButter

Colonel
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As an American we haven’t fought a peer competitor since the Korean War. During Vietnam it was a counter insurgency where they could get air support in major battles. Those of the Vietnam generation(boomers) are now the top brass. Generation X first taste of war was the Gulf war. They then fought in Afghanistan and Iraq again. Millennials first taste of war was Iraq and Afghanistan. Gen Z was in Afghanistan the later years. So you have FOUR generations of combat vets who only knew fighting insurgents with air support when things get tough.

This explains why the smart thinkers in the Pentagon didn’t want a fight with Iran since the Bush years. There is some radicals that want war with Iran but the majority don’t want it. War with Iran would expose the US military something serious. Iran may not have the same conventional strength but their asymmetrical war strategy would lead to a fiasco probably worse than what Russia is facing in Ukraine.
I suppose but isn’t Iran topography a huge factor as well?
 
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