UK Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

asif iqbal said:

I am taking about replacement programme for the HMS Ocean and after the current refit this should take her to 2018/19 after which there exists no plans to refit or replace her with a another like for like vessel for the LPD I don't know

Once HMS Ocean reaches the end of this refit that will most likely be the end because it can't take F35B and QE is designed to enter service soon after so RN doesn't loose anything, QE the hanger is large enough to take a Chinook and RN is already planning on how to use the deck for simultaneous helo operations to support amphibious troops mainly the Royal Navy Commandos

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Ah, I see. Thanks.

I thougt current plans for the Royal Navy, were for HMS Ocean to continue as the LPH for the Royal Navy into the 2020s. It is true that Vicker's Shipbuilding built her to a far lesser standard (almost commercials standards), and so her service life is only 20 years, which is far less than the 30-35 years she should have been built to. Normally that would mean that she would be paid off and ended in 2018. But I thought that this refit was adding a few years to her service life. Perhaps not.

She does operate in a LPH role (similar to and LPD for other navies) and fulfills air assault and amphibious assault duties for the Royal Navy. Though she does not have a well deck, she does have significant capabilities to embark and deploy her four LCVPs. I do not believe the QEs will fulfill that requirement.

She can also perform strong, specific and decdicated ASW duties when called upon by embarking the necessary ASW squadron helicopters.

Trying to get the QEs to fulfill all of these roles is simply expecting too much IMHO, particularly since there are only two of them.

asif iqbal said:

Now will the Commando helicopter force which is part of the fleet air arm shift to using the deck of the QE for future operations? I don't know I can still see LPD requirement and they might continue to have that but justifying another flat top just for CHF which has 4 helos squadrons is pretty unlikely.

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Well, perhaps I am wrong. I had the understanding that she would serve into the 2020s. Perhaps they intend for the QE to fill the air assault and amphibious assault role somehow (highly dubious IMHO), or think they only need the LPDs for the amphib roles.

If that is the case, IMHO, we are again going to see a decline in overall RN capabilities.

Obi Wan...your thoughts?

I guess we will indeed wait and see how it goes.

Jeff Head said:

Ah, I see. Thanks.


Trying to get the QEs to fulfill all of these roles is simply expecting too much IMHO, particularly since there are only two of them.

Well, perhaps I am wrong. I had the understanding that she would serve into the 2020s. Perhaps they intend for the QE to fill the air assault and amphibious assault role somehow (highly dubious IMHO), or think they only need the LPDs for the amphib roles.

If that is the case, IMHO, we are again going to see a decline in overall RN capabilities.

Obi Wan...your thoughts?

I guess we will indeed wait and see how it goes.

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Well this is the thing the amphibious assault role to provide a platform for the Royal Marines is part of the littoral mission capability that QE will provide

Now I can't remember it word for word but when the RN puts it's case forward for a two ship class they had listed a number of things and requirements

One was that a single carrier would only be operational around 200 days out of the year
When in refit RN would loose the carrier capability
And most importantly if RN wanted carrier strike and littoral missions this could not be done unless they have two carriers simply because the change in requirements and modifications required would not be possible with a single carrier you simply couldn't change from carrier strike to littoral mission over night which is why a two carrier fleet was requested and then accepted

This results in 3 possible scenarios

Have both carriers operational
Have one operational and one in "ready state"
Have one operational and sell of the second (very unlikely)

This will be decided next year

Again I can't remember the exact wording but the RN also put together a "air component" inventory which would be used for Royal Marines landing part of the littoral mission, it was 6 x F35B, 12 x Chinooks, 8 x Merlin and 4 x Apaches something like this the proposal was very detailed giving positions of landing spots and take offs

So basically what I am saying is QE will have two roles that of carrier strike and littoral missions with a two carrier fleet this is now possible and that's why I believe Commandos units will then might be shifted to QE class away from HMS Ocean etc and when I say the Commando units I mean just the air component the LPD would still deploy crafts for beech landing

asif iqbal said:

Well this is the thing the amphibious assault role to provide a platform for the Royal Marines is part of the littoral mission capability that QE will provide

One was that a single carrier would only be operational around 200 days out of the year

When in refit RN would loose the carrier capability

And most importantly if RN wanted carrier strike and littoral missions this could not be done unless they have two carriers simply because the change in requirements and modifications required would not be possible with a single carrier you simply couldn't change from carrier strike to littoral mission over night which is why a two carrier fleet was requested and then accepted

This results in 3 possible scenarios

Have both carriers operational
Have one operational and one in "ready state"
Have one operational and sell of the second (very unlikely)

This will be decided next year

Again I can't remember the exact wording but the RN also put together a "air component" inventory which would be used for Royal Marines landing part of the littoral mission, it was 6 x F35B, 12 x Chinooks, 8 x Merlin and 4 x Apaches something like this the proposal was very detailed giving positions of landing spots and take offs

So basically what I am saying is QE will have two roles that of carrier strike and littoral missions with a two carrier fleet this is now possible.

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Well, in normal years having your carrier availabe 200 days of the year seems high to me.

But in any case, thre will be years when the carriers go through moderate maintenance, when they may be out of service for months. There will be other years when they go through major overhauls when they will be out of service for 12-18 months.

During those years and times they fleet will be significantly constrained.

And during the good years, making a shift from a full carrier, doing normal large deck carrier operations to being dedicated to a helicopter carrier/amphibious/Air Assault role itself is going to require a fairly significant refit for the specific duties. They will not make that change in a few days or even a few weeks.

I just do not see the carrier, especially a two carrier force, being able to do the full deck carrier operations and the complete set of needs required for any significant marine assault mission/requirements.

Particularly when the you know what hits the fan...whcih is the scenario you have to design for, plan for, and prepare for.

Because when that time comes...it's too late to build more vessels.

Jeff Head said:

...

Bcause when that time comes...it's too late to build more vessels.

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I was curious, again so a moment ago I used google, found this interesting article:

and a lengthy discussion here:

I don't think the amphibious landing force will be based on the carriers but only the Commander Helicopter Force providing the rotary wing assets to the Royal Marines

Jeff Head said:

I just do not see the carrier, especially a two carrier force, being able to do the full deck carrier operations and the complete set of needs required for any significant marine assault mission/requirements.

Particularly when the you know what hits the fan...whcih is the scenario you have to design for, plan for, and prepare for.

Because when that time comes...it's too late to build more vessels.

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Thing we must remember is that QE won't actually be doing full deck carrier operations it will be limited operations unless situation requires otherwise certainly not like we see for the tempo rates for USN the roles will be wide and diverse not always air centric

Naval squadron of F35B will always be ready to deploy from home bases if the need arises

asif iqbal said:

Thing we must remember is that QE won't actually be doing full deck carrier operations it will be limited operations unless situation requires otherwise certainly not like we see for the tempo rates for USN the roles will be wide and diverse not always air centric

Naval squadron of F35B will always be ready to deploy from home bases if the need arises

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Well, it just sounds a lot like they are trying to justify the QE by making it appear to be a do-all wonder vessel.

That may be fine for peacetime operations...but not for when things go wrong.

If you want to be good at high tempo operations, and if you are going to build a 70,000 ton aircraaft that can carry 50 or more aircraft, then you have to exercises those capabilities.

The US is good at carrier operations with such great tempo and with all of the wepaons and ordinance on target becasue they are constantly practising and training to do just that. and they are doing it with multiple carriers. Year in and year out.

Politicians and their appointees seem to be trying to convince themselves that these vessels really can only be justified by making them a sometimes CV, a somethimess LPH, a humantiarian vessel, and having one of them simply maybe be a vessel in storage until needed. As I say, they may get away with that for a time...but God forbid a serious conflict comes along where the real capabilites of those 70,000 warship are needed and you suddenly find that they are not honed in providing those skills.

I am afraid that is where this will lead.

But at least they will have the vessels I suppose...and can deal with those realities when they arise.

Jeff Head said:

Well, it just sounds a lot like they are trying to justify the QE by making it appear to be a do-all wonder vessel.

That may be fine for peacetime operations...but not for when things go wrong.

If you want to be good at high tempo operations, and if you are going to build a 70,000 ton aircraaft that can carry 50 or more aircraft, then you have to exercises those capabilities.

The US is good at carrier operations with such great tempo and with all of the wepaons and ordinance on target becasue they are constantly practising and training to do just that. and they are doing it with multiple carriers. Year in and year out.

Politicians and their appointees seem to be trying to convince themselves that these vessels really can only be justified by making them a sometimes CV, a somethimess LPH, a humantiarian vessel, and having one of them simply maybe be a vessel in storage until needed. As I say, they may get away with that for a time...but God forbid a serious conflict comes along where the real capabilites of those 70,000 warship are needed and you suddenly find that they are not honed in providing those skills.

I am afraid that is where this will lead.

But at least they will have the vessels I suppose...and can deal with those realities when they arise.

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Yes no question about it's like a oil machined which needs to keep running the minute you cut the flying hours you drop your efficiency

I see it like a sportsman who competes at the highest competitive level who has to train to keep on top of the game the minute you stop training you fall behind

No one does carriers opps like USN no one the sortie rates, the range the % of bombs on target everything and yes UK will have two carriers but they won't have the ultra high end true carrier operational capability of the USN plus there is no cats and traps either so they don't have the long arm either no fixed wing AWACS, no future UCAV and no F35C but sometimes it's ok just to be second best and on this occasion second best is good enough don't you think?

In peacetime they will carry only 12 x F35B hardly a power projection force but it all comes down to $$$ and UK can't afford keep a carrier or even two carriers doing day/night carrier opps around the clock it's as simple as that

But they are big ships and naval ships always dictate foreign affairs so finally now UK can also have that privilege albeit after a very very long time

Jeff Head said:

...

But at least they will have the vessels I suppose...and can deal with those realities when they arise.

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One of the things which puzzles me is this quote from:

"Significant work has gone into reducing the manpower levels of the ship. Current crew complement for the vessel alone is 679 sailors, compared to 3,200 for a Nimitz-class carrier of the U.S. Navy."
I know the Nimitz-class is bigger than R08, R09 but still ... What's your take on this?

BAE Systems announces new suppliers for Type 26 Global Combat Ship Frigate programme

BAE Systems has today announced new design contracts for the Type 26 Global Combat Ship, which will play a vital role in the programme to deliver the Royal Navy’s next generation surface warship. Six Design Development Agreements have been awarded covering key areas such as propulsion, ventilation and electrical equipment, as well as combat and navigation systems.

The design contracts have been awarded to the following companies:

• Babcock for the ship’s Air Weapons Handling System
• DCNS for work on the vessel’s propulsion shaftlines
• GE Energy Power Conversion for the Electric Propulsion Motor and Drive System
• Imtech for the Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning System, and the Low Voltage Electrical equipment
• Raytheon to develop the Integrated Navigation and Bridge Systems
• Tyco Fire & Integrated Solutions for the ship’s Fixed Firefighting Systems

Geoff Searle, Type 26 Global Combat Ship Programme Director at BAE Systems, said: “By the 2030s, the Type 26 will be the backbone of UK’s surface fleet and a strong industrial base is essential to sustaining this naval capability. Our partners and suppliers play a key role in this, as we work together to further develop the detailed design of the ship’s systems and equipment to enable us to deliver 13 highly capable, affordable and supportable Type 26 ships for the Royal Navy.

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