Type 95 Assault Rifle II

kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Re: Type 95 assault rifle

plawolf said:
Sorry for the very late reply, but your original post seemed to have slipped past me.

The Chinese sniper rifle used as the 5.8mm FY-JS rifle. You can find more info on it here.

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/army/china-takes-home-world-sniper-cup-2011-a-5607.html

---------- Post added at 04:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:23 PM ----------



I always thought the problem with the NATO 5.56mm in terms of unarmed targets was one of over penetration, which was also what the Japanese experienced in WWII with their 6.5mm Type 38s (which is one of the reasons why they went to 7.7mm in the Type99).

When you fire small cal. rounds at an unarmed target, the round could easily pass straight through the target without transfering much enemy to it, causing a very small wound. Unless the round hit bone or a critical major organ like the heart or brain, often the damage could heal in as little as a few weeks.

The introduction of the newer green tip with enhanced armor piercing qualities was mainly due to a completely different set of problems experienced in Iraq and Afghanistan, where NATO 5.56mm rounds would often struggle to penetrate things like car windshields or light walls reliably. Although this shift to add more armor piercing potential to rounds may actually make the over-penetration problem worse.

I have heard that a new round was being designed to be more bottom heavy to create greater instability and increase the chance that the round would tumble after entering an unarmored target, although I did not follow this up so I am unsure if this new feature has also been incorporated into the new 'green tip'. Does anyone have any more info on this or could confirm or deny whether this tumbling feature was intended for the 'green tip' or a different round altogether?
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it's not the penetration of the bullet per se that causes the damage. When a high speed projectile hit a body of water or liquid filled objects like a human body, it causes massive pressure waves upon entering the body. The sudden expansion of the tissue and water surrouding it causes massive cavitation and damage to structures or organs near it. Since momentum is conserved (Newton's laws...), the human body recoils in the opposite direction of the force it was exerting. The momentum of the flesh of human skin is greater than the strength of the bonds holding it together in its normal shape, so the part of the body being hit flies apart and that is why while the entry point may look like a little hole the damage inside is quite significant. The hydrostatic shock is what kills you even if the actual bullet misses an organ or artery.
All you have to do to witness the potential lethality of a 'small' 5.56 round is to shoot at a watermelon. Trust me when I say the entry and exit wound' is not a straight hole. The darn thing literally explodes. It exploded because of pressure way from a extremely high speed projectile violently entering a stable state of water. Another easy experiment you can do is to shoot as a water bottle. The thing explodes too. It doesn;t just leave a nice clean entry and exit hole. The pressure
 
N

Norfolk

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Re: Type 95 assault rifle

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is a much-debated phenomenon, with some evidence (both
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, and anecodotal) for its lethality; some deer hunters, for example, have been of the opinion that the .270 Winchester, when firing a 130-grain bullet at some 3,100 fps, can kill by hydrostatic shock if the round passes in some proximity to either the heart or the CNS.

Likewise, there was a body of thought originating out of the experiences of the Vietnam War, that held that the original 5.56mm NATO round, the M-193 (being inherently unstable upon physical contact; though, the newer versions no longer possess this quality), was able to kill by peripatetic shock. One commonly cited anecdote was a certain VC soldier merely being struck in the hand; in this case, it manifested itself as heart-beat reversal, or so it was said.

However, hydrostatic shock is
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to be a marginal (normally operative only in exceptional circumstances, my opinion) to a non-existent (the generally-held one) factor in lethality. In any case, your great-granddad's .30-30 fires an appreciably more lethal round than any of the past, present, or future 5.56mm's.

Of course, I am not suggesting that I would stand in between a prairie dog and some over-eager varmint hunter hopped up on six-pack of Red Bull whilst dialing in the scope on his
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either.

In the case of the 5.56mm and human targets, a subject in question may have simply indulged in a high-sodium diet, and the shock of the bullet-strike was just enough to push his little over-worked heart over the edge. - /sarc.
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Re: Type 95 assault rifle

Hydrostatic shock can be very lethal However too get it's full effect the round needs too both expanded fragment and round designed too do that on purpose are a no no for military operators out side of limited counter terrorism roles It comes under the Anti Dum dum. The Law enforcement community however suffers no limitations on such (unless set at a more local level.)Hydrostatic shock producing rounds are common for cops particularly well known are hollowpoint rounds .
 
N

nemo

Junior Member
Re: Type 95 assault rifle

Here is a simple way to deal with over penetration -- just alternate armor piercing round with non-AP rounds in the magazine, so when a burst is fired, some non-AP rounds will be fired with AP rounds. This way, if the target is armored, then the AP rounds will be effective. If not, then the non-AP rounds will be.
 
CottageLV

CottageLV

Banned Idiot
Re: Type 95 assault rifle

I noticed in one post, the ammo used for PLA sniper rifles was talked about. I'm shocked that even purpose-built sniper rifles (not including type-88 marksman rifle) don't have specialized ammo, and are still using steel casings. It can't be that expensive, a million rounds probably still costs less than a main battle tank, but a million sniper rifle rounds could do a lot more than a tank.
 
MwRYum

MwRYum

Major
Re: Type 95 assault rifle

CottageLV said:
I noticed in one post, the ammo used for PLA sniper rifles was talked about. I'm shocked that even purpose-built sniper rifles (not including type-88 marksman rifle) don't have specialized ammo, and are still using steel casings. It can't be that expensive, a million rounds probably still costs less than a main battle tank, but a million sniper rifle rounds could do a lot more than a tank.
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While R&D for new rifles could use "export" and "police use" to start as private venture, for ammo is more complicated. You need to have it produced in a certain bulk to meet the economics, and unlike the US where there's a big civilian gun owner market (so some of the lesser demand munitions can be sourced from match-grade or hunting products), in China only military and paramilitary...so it all boils down to the state's demand for such a thing; on top of that, state's demand begin with the military's.

For a very long time, PLA and PAP's idea for "sniper" is what outside world called "designated marksman", that not only reflect on the training and quality of men, even the performance of QBU-88 shows all.

And here's the problem - only in recent years, through the increase in contacts with outside world, studies and events like the international sniper competition, that the military's and paramilitary's chain of command begin to appreciate snipers in way that's compatible with the West, so it'll take time for it all to boil down into an official demand for sub-MOA snipers with match-grade munitions.
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Type 95 assault rifle

The fact that PAP snipers won the world sniping contest with 5.8mm nipper rifles would imply that the PLA now has match grade ammo. Although I would not be surprised if the development of this ammo was funded by the PAP.

It would be interesting to find out how the 88 performs with match grade ammo.
 
CottageLV

CottageLV

Banned Idiot
Re: Type 95 assault rifle

plawolf said:
The fact that PAP snipers won the world sniping contest with 5.8mm nipper rifles would imply that the PLA now has match grade ammo. Although I would not be surprised if the development of this ammo was funded by the PAP.

It would be interesting to find out how the 88 performs with match grade ammo.
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Which one? Please provide a link, I'm really interested.

I think I have heard similar stories a long time ago, but I think they were using rifles provided by the organizers.

---------- Post added at 04:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:08 AM ----------
MwRYum said:
While R&D for new rifles could use "export" and "police use" to start as private venture, for ammo is more complicated. You need to have it produced in a certain bulk to meet the economics, and unlike the US where there's a big civilian gun owner market (so some of the lesser demand munitions can be sourced from match-grade or hunting products), in China only military and paramilitary...so it all boils down to the state's demand for such a thing; on top of that, state's demand begin with the military's.

For a very long time, PLA and PAP's idea for "sniper" is what outside world called "designated marksman", that not only reflect on the training and quality of men, even the performance of QBU-88 shows all.

And here's the problem - only in recent years, through the increase in contacts with outside world, studies and events like the international sniper competition, that the military's and paramilitary's chain of command begin to appreciate snipers in way that's compatible with the West, so it'll take time for it all to boil down into an official demand for sub-MOA snipers with match-grade munitions.
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Come on, there are 2.5 million PLA, 1.5 paramilitary police, plus another few million police. I'm sure out of the 4-5 million of them, at least 10-20 thousand are designated snipers. Even if each only go through 500 rounds a year, which is ridiculously low for pro snipers, it would still make up 5 - 10 million rounds a year. This is more than enough to start a specialized production line, if not two or more.
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Type 95 assault rifle

CottageLV said:
Which one? Please provide a link, I'm really interested.

I think I have heard similar stories a long time ago, but I think they were using rifles provided by the organizers.
Click to expand...

I already posted a link to it a few posts back.
 
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