antiterror13
Brigadier
Re: Type 560 Rans Aground
you are the one who always OFF TOPIC
A thief shouldn't call other a thief ...
you are the one who always OFF TOPIC
A thief shouldn't call other a thief ...
Type 560 Runs Aground
- Thread starter ManilaBoy45
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plawolf
Lieutenant General
Re: Type 560 Rans Aground
Heya, I don't see why the PLAN would ground (i.e. potentially sacrifice) a perfectly good warship in order to get an engineering team onto the shoal for. What would be the point to doing that?
Since I like to ply devils advocate, I'm going to get into character and quote a Bond Villain, "the key to a good story is not the how or the where or the when, it is the why".
Unless you are dealing with imbeciles or psychotics, people always have a reason, a why, for deciding to do something. It might not always be logical or reasonable or even make any sense, but there is always a reason for why someone decided to do something that is not a spur of the moment reaction.
I cannot see why China would want to do this. If they wanted to 'upgrade' some rocks into an 'island' by building it up like the Japanese (who actually lost their case recently on exactly this argument iirc), they would just build it up, ramming a warship onto it achieves nothing other than to damage and possibly scupper the warship.
If it was the Philippines who were thinking of making such an upgrade and the Chinese were just pre-empting them by ramming the proposed reef and thus getting an excuse to demolish the top of it so it could not be raised into an island, well ramming a supertanker or any commercial ship into it would have been far more effective and would have not raise any eyebrows or conspiracy theories.
Unless I hear a really good reason for why the PLAN would think this would be a good idea, I would just chalk this up as a genuine balls-up on the part of the Captain/officer of the watch/crew or the result of a really unfortunate set of circumstances like adverse weather/faulty navigation equipment/inaccurate maps etc.
As Forest Gump would say, sometimes 'sh*t happens'.
Heya, I don't see why the PLAN would ground (i.e. potentially sacrifice) a perfectly good warship in order to get an engineering team onto the shoal for. What would be the point to doing that?
Since I like to ply devils advocate, I'm going to get into character and quote a Bond Villain, "the key to a good story is not the how or the where or the when, it is the why".
Unless you are dealing with imbeciles or psychotics, people always have a reason, a why, for deciding to do something. It might not always be logical or reasonable or even make any sense, but there is always a reason for why someone decided to do something that is not a spur of the moment reaction.
I cannot see why China would want to do this. If they wanted to 'upgrade' some rocks into an 'island' by building it up like the Japanese (who actually lost their case recently on exactly this argument iirc), they would just build it up, ramming a warship onto it achieves nothing other than to damage and possibly scupper the warship.
If it was the Philippines who were thinking of making such an upgrade and the Chinese were just pre-empting them by ramming the proposed reef and thus getting an excuse to demolish the top of it so it could not be raised into an island, well ramming a supertanker or any commercial ship into it would have been far more effective and would have not raise any eyebrows or conspiracy theories.
Unless I hear a really good reason for why the PLAN would think this would be a good idea, I would just chalk this up as a genuine balls-up on the part of the Captain/officer of the watch/crew or the result of a really unfortunate set of circumstances like adverse weather/faulty navigation equipment/inaccurate maps etc.
As Forest Gump would say, sometimes 'sh*t happens'.
SteelBird
Colonel
Re: Type 560 Rans Aground
Sorry for my ignorant, I thought the Chinese only sends the Yuzheng (fishing control vessels) and Haijian (Ocean surveillance vessels). It's the first time I hear there are naval vessels patrolling there. Or maybe I got confused with the Diaoyu islands?
Sorry for my ignorant, I thought the Chinese only sends the Yuzheng (fishing control vessels) and Haijian (Ocean surveillance vessels). It's the first time I hear there are naval vessels patrolling there. Or maybe I got confused with the Diaoyu islands?
Re: Type 560 Rans Aground
It was Diaoyu Islands that PLAN never had the nerve to patrol. SSF has been patrolling SCS since the 70s, and AFAIK the continuous patrol hasn't broken since the late 1980s. Usually it's one of the six Jianghu-V frigates being rotated to the area, sometimes Jiangwei join the patrol too. This particular ship, 560 Dongguan, spent over 200 days on the sea last year. Contrary to popular believes PLAN actually maintain an active patrol regime in the SCS, not just with frigates on duty, but regularly fly Y8X sorties too.
---------- Post added at 09:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 PM ----------
The waters around Half Moon has an average depth of 27m, the shallowest part is the entrance to the tide lake which is 13m deep. Unlike others this one doesn't have a massive shallow reef surrounding the atoll above the water, it's pretty darn hard to run aground a ship that has a 3m draft. You literally have to drive right onto the atoll to do so.
It was Diaoyu Islands that PLAN never had the nerve to patrol. SSF has been patrolling SCS since the 70s, and AFAIK the continuous patrol hasn't broken since the late 1980s. Usually it's one of the six Jianghu-V frigates being rotated to the area, sometimes Jiangwei join the patrol too. This particular ship, 560 Dongguan, spent over 200 days on the sea last year. Contrary to popular believes PLAN actually maintain an active patrol regime in the SCS, not just with frigates on duty, but regularly fly Y8X sorties too.
---------- Post added at 09:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 PM ----------
The waters around Half Moon has an average depth of 27m, the shallowest part is the entrance to the tide lake which is 13m deep. Unlike others this one doesn't have a massive shallow reef surrounding the atoll above the water, it's pretty darn hard to run aground a ship that has a 3m draft. You literally have to drive right onto the atoll to do so.
Re: Type 560 Rans Aground
I've always been under the impression that these Jianghu-V frigates have been patrolling there. Do you know how the CMS patrols are different from the SSF ones?
joshuatree
Captain
Re: Type 560 Rans Aground
That's essentially what the Filipinos did with the grounded BRP Sierra Madre. It now acts as a"base" for their soldiers watching over that respective reef.
That's essentially what the Filipinos did with the grounded BRP Sierra Madre. It now acts as a"base" for their soldiers watching over that respective reef.
Philippines is being hypocritical here. Malaysia have the same problems with the Philippines in the Spartly. However, all the incidents are not in the spotlight, mainly, because the Philippines chose to downplay it. You see, Malaysia is not China, so Philippines cannot play the "victim" in the international scene. It is to Philippines' advantage to put the spotlight to incidents involving China while putting a blind eye to incidents involving Malaysia and Indonesia. They even had some incidents with the Vietnamese but always kept a lid on it.
Yes, I agree with you that Taiwan( Republic of China) had the first and longest claim to the islands. By virtue of the international community recognizing that there is only one China, then mainland China should assume as the legal claimant. All other countries started claiming the islands much later. During the fall of Saigon, Vietnam aggressively occupied some of the Spratly which provoked Philippines to destroy Chinese and Vietnamese survey markers and occupy a few of the island. Malaysia followed suit in the early 80's and have destroyed and replaced a lot of Filipino and Vietnamese markers. Brunei lay her claims in the 2000's.
How do the countries involved handle this? Malaysia chose a diplomatic/ win win approach. The Philippines as usual, being a Westerner trapped in an Asian body, chose the confrontational/ zero sum gain approach. While the Philippines is still in the mist of a brawl, Malaysia is already sharing the revenues of joint oil ventures with China. Oil revenues already represent 40% of Malaysian government's source of fund. Filipinos knows that their democracy is dysfunctional and their politicians are mostly predatory and corrupt, but yet subscribe to their unrealistic approach. I really wonder what will the Philippines get once all the oil are gone.
Yes, I agree with you that Taiwan( Republic of China) had the first and longest claim to the islands. By virtue of the international community recognizing that there is only one China, then mainland China should assume as the legal claimant. All other countries started claiming the islands much later. During the fall of Saigon, Vietnam aggressively occupied some of the Spratly which provoked Philippines to destroy Chinese and Vietnamese survey markers and occupy a few of the island. Malaysia followed suit in the early 80's and have destroyed and replaced a lot of Filipino and Vietnamese markers. Brunei lay her claims in the 2000's.
How do the countries involved handle this? Malaysia chose a diplomatic/ win win approach. The Philippines as usual, being a Westerner trapped in an Asian body, chose the confrontational/ zero sum gain approach. While the Philippines is still in the mist of a brawl, Malaysia is already sharing the revenues of joint oil ventures with China. Oil revenues already represent 40% of Malaysian government's source of fund. Filipinos knows that their democracy is dysfunctional and their politicians are mostly predatory and corrupt, but yet subscribe to their unrealistic approach. I really wonder what will the Philippines get once all the oil are gone.
Re: Type 560 Rans Aground
CMS doesn't have forward deployed ships there, therefore no 24/7 presence in the region, FLEC is much more active there but mostly towards Vietnam, they have some smaller boats that are periodically stationed at Woody Island. Most CMS patrols are originated from Hainan or even Zhanjiang, such as the recent CMS 83 task force, they just spend a week or so to go around the whole SCS and return to their base. SSF on the other hand has "ship on duty" (值班舰）in SSC, the Jianghus regularly run a patrol routine circling Chinese controlled reefs, their patrol region is huge and sometimes are tasked to escort important vessels at the southern tip of the Chinese claimed region, for example the cargo ships carrying Kilo, Varyag, or the recent Indian Navy visiting fleet. The Jianghus almost never engage in maritime law enforcement activities though, they may monitor foreign government vessels but if they see foreign fishing boats they will not perform interception, instead CMS or FLEC (if available) will be called in.
CMS doesn't have forward deployed ships there, therefore no 24/7 presence in the region, FLEC is much more active there but mostly towards Vietnam, they have some smaller boats that are periodically stationed at Woody Island. Most CMS patrols are originated from Hainan or even Zhanjiang, such as the recent CMS 83 task force, they just spend a week or so to go around the whole SCS and return to their base. SSF on the other hand has "ship on duty" (值班舰）in SSC, the Jianghus regularly run a patrol routine circling Chinese controlled reefs, their patrol region is huge and sometimes are tasked to escort important vessels at the southern tip of the Chinese claimed region, for example the cargo ships carrying Kilo, Varyag, or the recent Indian Navy visiting fleet. The Jianghus almost never engage in maritime law enforcement activities though, they may monitor foreign government vessels but if they see foreign fishing boats they will not perform interception, instead CMS or FLEC (if available) will be called in.
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